Doug Cameron (00:01)
Hi and welcome to the KnowEntry podcast brought to you from KnowDelay, where you can get advanced weather information to make that flight experience just a little bit easier. Now today's, we might be calling this Geoff Murray's bad day at the office. Geoff, we'll come back to you in a second, but hello, Noam Alon. Hello.

Noam Alon (00:21)
Hi how are you?

Doug Cameron (00:22)
Dennis Taylor, how are you doing?

Dennis Taylor (00:24)
Greetings.

Doug Cameron (00:27)
So, Geoff Murray, one word for you, Bentonville. I've been to Bentonville, Arkansas a couple of times. Let's go through it. Maybe one of your trickier travel experiences. I wonder what we can learn both from your time there and also how it might filter down to travelers and viewers and what experiences. So give us the elevator version of what happened.

Geoff Murray (00:52)
Sure, so the elevator speech here was we were flying from Chicago to Bentonville and a lot of that area in the south was impacted materially by weather the day that we were flying down. Then we were supposed to go to one of the western hubs, Denver, Salt Lake, that kind of thing, and then we were going to end up in Palm Springs. And I had been looking forward to this trip for weeks. I've never been to Palm Springs.
You know, read about all the, you know, the Rat Pack, spending time there in the sixties and that kind of thing. So, it was a trip I was really looking forward to. And of course, you know, weather got in the way of that. And as we'll see, it got in the way just by every possible permutation you can think about.

Doug Cameron (01:42)
Well, I just looked up Bentonville's meant to have a subtropical climate so it didn't turn out like Palm Springs did it?

Geoff Murray (01:49)
Not at all. We ended up spending the night there, which we'll talk about during the podcast, but the day that we were there, they had in the 24-hour period they were there, they had about 14 and a half inches of snow. Yeah. And I'm from Rochester, New York and the weather there reminded me of the weather you'd see in Rochester when I was a kid. Heavy snow.

Doug Cameron (02:04)
That's a lot. So, it's kind of an unremarkable place to go to, it's a pretty new airport relatively at North West Ark and so what kind of start at the chain of events?

Geoff Murray (02:26)
So as Dennis and Noam can relate to, and I'm going to have them chime in, Bentonville is a smaller airport, so it is not used to having a lot of big aircraft, a lot of international aircraft, and one of the big deals is they don't have what's known as a cat-two approach. And Noam, just going to have you quickly explain the difference between a cat-one and a cat-two, which is important here.

Noam Alon (02:52)
Yeah, so it's a function of how low the visibility could be and still allow you to land. So, CAT I requires higher visibility and higher ceilings, and a cat 2 allows you to get even lower. So lower ceiling, lower visibility in order to land.

Doug Cameron (03:11)
Is a CAT, III, II, is that right? We go up to CAT, II? Yep, okay.

Noam Alon (03:13)
That's even lower. Right. Correct. Yes.

Geoff Murray (03:16)
Dennis, Dennis has flown CAT III approaches in his 787.

Doug Cameron (03:19)
Thanks.

Dennis Taylor (03:20)
But they need crew, special crew training to be able to do these type approaches. So, I fly an airplane that has CAT II capabilities, but I'm not allowed to do them because I'm not trained in that airplane to do them.

Doug Cameron (03:34)
Okay. Got it. Okay.

Geoff Murray (03:39)
Yep. So, so the reason this is important when we showed up at the airport, when I, we, I mean, mean the crew, the, the captain I was flying with myself, the flight attendants, we have to look at the weather. We coordinate with our dispatch and what we found out was the forecast, the aviation forecast, a forecast called the TAF, the terminal area forecast was forecasting one quarter mile visibility. And why is that important known for a cat two approach or a cat one?

Noam Alon (04:09)
Well, it's below CAT I.

Geoff Murray (04:11)
Exactly. So, Bentonville is again a smaller airport, great airport, like modern airport and all that, but they only have cat one approaches. So, the visibility forecast of a quarter mile meant that at the time we couldn't even dispatch to the airport. So, we were sitting around O'Hare waiting, know, calling our dispatchers. They were calling NOAA to see if we could get the forecast changed because the forecast was so low that we couldn't even go.

Sure enough, 30 or 40 minutes went by, the TAF got modified, the forecast got modified, which meant that, you know, the snow was dissipating to an extent, and it went up to half a mile, which meant we could dispatch to the airport. So, we'd already been delayed at O'Hare. We boarded the aircraft 30, 45 minutes late, boarded late, you know, pushed back from the gate late and all that stuff. And we took off legally.

because the approach minimums were met, the category one minimums, and that's a category one airport. It does not have the category two approaches that Noam was talking about were acceptable for us, half mile, so we could dispatch our way to the airport, took off from O'Hare, started making our way down to, making our way down to Bentonville.

Doug Cameron (05:29)
Geoff, we like to keep track of the kind of communications between the cockpit and the passengers. So, given that sort of to and fro and the changing weather, what were you and the crew and your colleagues sort of telling the passengers both at the gate and when they got on the airport? Because it's not a long way to Bentonville. you know, I'm sure everyone was, I don't know, a lot of dates might have been planned, whatever. So, what were you telling people?

Geoff Murray (05:54)
We were, as we always are, super transparent. We're like, look, here's what's going on at the airport. The visibility at the airport right now is half a mile, but the forecast is calling for quarter mile. Those forecasts often change. And sure enough, it changed to half a mile. We told them when it was a quarter mile forecast, we couldn't go, but we were going to wait. So, we told everybody wait in the gate area. We may be able to board, you know, in 10 minutes, in 20 minutes, in 30 minutes. So, we were very transparent and sure enough, the forecast changed. And we explained to everybody literally the way we're talking right now very clearly on exactly what was going on. The forecast changed, the forecast changed in our favor, so we were dispatched able to dispatch and fly to the airport.

Doug Cameron (06:40)
Got it. Okay.

Geoff Murray (06:41)
Yep. So, and again, I don't want this to be a monologue. We're making our way down to Bentonville. We're getting vector for the approach in Bentonville. The visibility is half a mile. So, we're legal for the approach. The ceiling was 200, 300 feet. We're all legal. We're getting vectors for the approach. And just as we're getting ready to get handed over to tower, they're like, hey, could you guys go around and give us a few minutes to sweep the runway?

Dennis Taylor (06:45)
Okay.

Geoff Murray (07:10)
There's a lot of snow on the runway. So, we break off the approach and Noam and Dennis have done this a million times. We break off the approach.

Dennis Taylor (07:11)
Yes.

Geoff Murray (07:18)
We enter a hold not far from Bentonville, not for very long, literally like 10, 15 minutes at most, enter this hold and then get re-vectored for the approach. we break out actually, it was probably three quarters of a mile when we landed in a 400-foot ceiling, but snow everywhere, compacted snow on the runway. The taxiways were a mess. The ramp was partially plowed in some areas. It was a really messy airport.

Doug Cameron (07:47)
We're going to do an episode later on and go arounds, but you kind of make it sound like no big deal. Dennis, just for passengers, just how big a deal is a go around? It's obviously something you train heavily for, but how routine is it? Because I'm coming down and I can see the weather, I know the weather's not great, I'm a passenger and I feel us going down and then we're going up again. So maybe you can just give us a little bit of as to how routine it is.

Noam Alon (07:47)
Geoff, I imagine...

Dennis Taylor (08:16)
We practice go-rounds frequently, always in the simulator. real world, it's completely safe. Is it normal? I wouldn't say it's normal. It's, you know, again, it's not something you do in the real world very often. Obviously, it's a challenge for the controllers also because

Doug Cameron (08:39)
Yeah.

Dennis Taylor (08:40)
Not only do we have a procedure on our chart to fly, but like in Chicago, if you go around, they're going to give you different instructions when you end up going around because they have so many airplanes in the pattern. So, there is a level of complexity to them. Are they safe? Yes. Are they normal? No. But all the pilots out there flying are trained to do them.

Noam Alon (09:09)
Doug, I'll say, you know, I'll just add that, you know, probably in a typical year we might do two or three that, you know, as a result of flying, but we brief them, at least in my airline, we brief them at least once a day as a crew. So, we walk through the mechanics, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, stepwise, just so that it's, to Dennis's point, it's not normal, but that it becomes as routine as possible.

Doug Cameron (09:34)
Geoff, had you ever had one before because they were sweeping the runway? I'm glad they were sweeping the runway, but it was the first for you.

Geoff Murray (09:40)
Yes, we were glad they were sweeping the runway. I've had a handful of go-arounds. I would say you probably do a go-around every three months, every six months. And just like Noam said, we brief these things all the time. mean, every single approach, it's like, okay, I'm gonna put the aircraft down in the first third of the runway. If I'm not on the ground by taxiway, whatever, call for a go-around.

The go around mechanics are, you know, flap to go around thrust, positive rate gear up. So it's a whole script. So, it's, I would say it's not, it's certainly not usual, but when we call for it, we're all primed for it. So, everybody knows where hands are going to go, what call outs are going to get made. So, so it's not like you're, you're, you're scrambling in the cockpit. It's like,

Okay, we're going around, I gotta do this, I gotta do this, I gotta do that, I gotta check to make sure he's done that, and then he's gonna tell me to do this. That kind of thing.

Dennis Taylor (10:45)
Hey, Doug.

Noam Alon (10:45)
Geoff, I have quick question. Just as they're telling you this and you're going around, I assume you obviously had an alternate and you had some amount of hold fuel, but you probably, after a flight that long, you're probably pretty tight in terms of overall fuel to be able to hold.

Geoff Murray (11:03)
Yeah. And in Great Point Noam, because the southeast was blanketed with snow that day. I mean, there were missed approaches all over. Memphis, Springfield, Branson, mean, Atlanta had snow that day. And we were dispatched with enough fuel. I want to say our alternate was Dallas, Texas. So, we had enough fuel for.

If I remember, like 45 minutes or holding, another approach, and then make our way down to Dallas and get down to Dallas with 45 minutes of reserve fuel. Yeah, so we were pretty heavily loaded with fuel. Yep.

Noam Alon (11:41)
Yeah, it makes sense, makes sense.

Doug Cameron (11:43)
Dennis,

Dennis Taylor (11:43)
Well,

Doug Cameron (11:43)
You were going to come in.

Dennis Taylor (11:44)
Yeah, the other thing, you know, it was kind of started this problem for Geoff and I saw this more this year, I think than any other year because of these big storm systems, winter storms that went south, but runway conditions. So, you get these arcane reports, you know, almost someone guy goes out there with a little bicycle and sees how slippery the runway is. But they couldn't get the runways taken care of. Dallas got to where they couldn't take any airplanes because they couldn't get the runways cleaned. And that was happening all over the, you know, pretty much from Missouri south. Kansas City was running the problems. They're running out of fluid to treat the runways. And it really was kind of a crazy time with these storms.

Doug Cameron (12:29)
Okay, so where are we at in your flight, Geoff? What are you hearing? What do have to do now?

Geoff Murray (12:30)
Yup. So, we land, the runways covered with snow, the taxiways are covered with snow. mean, they had ground equipment, snowplows all over the field. And we were joking that they were probably trying to get Jimmy Joe from the local tow shop to come over and do some plowing on the ramp and that kind of thing. Because it was bustling with activity. And this is.
This day, again, I don't want to be a monologue, it's like a never-ending story. They hook up the jetway. The jetway cab has been exposed to that snow and ice, but those guys have been out there, you know, trying to, you know, brush the snow off the jetway in the first, I mean, it's not funny. The first two people off the aircraft wipe out on the jetway. I mean, literally, like their feet slide out from underneath them. Boom, they're right on their fannies on the jetway. You know, everybody's paying attention.

Doug Cameron (13:21)
Bye.

Geoff Murray (13:29)
You know, we get all the blankets from the back of the airplane and start throwing blankets down on the jetway so that they can cover the snow. So that's that that delayed our deplaning because we had to take care of the folks that slipped and fell on the jetway.

Doug Cameron (13:37)
Got it. Yeah. When you land in that kind of conditions, and we've kind of touched on this in some other winter episodes, but, but Nolan, what can you do when, you when the runways and taxiways are that messy? Because you probably know that there are potential problems building up literally in the form of ice and debris and whatever else. So what can you kind of do physically on a taxi and to maybe try and either minimize that or just be cognizant that, yeah, there's going to be...
Even when we get there, there's going to be other problems in store.

Noam Alon (14:17)
Slow down. That's your only solution. Slow down. I had a, you depend on the professionalism of all these, you know, the people to clear the runways, because that's really the most critical. And oftentimes the runway is the cleanest of the surfaces, and the taxiways could be really, really challenging. But I had a flight going into O'Hare where we landed on time and then it took us over an hour to taxi because we had to go so slow because of the snow conditions. Runway was fine, taxiways were terrible.

Geoff Murray (14:49)
Yeah.

Doug Cameron (14:51)
This is my two teens who've got the driver's license now. This is their first winter, first Chicago winter, first time driving in the snow. And it seems like the advice is as simple as what I tell them, yeah, half your speed or whatever. mean, Dennis, is that what literally you do? You half your speed or quarter it? mean, how slow can you go, I guess?

Dennis Taylor (15:14)
You can go walking speed. You can go pretty slow because, yeah, once you hit the ice, there's not much you can do to stop. But it's amazing. Like in Chicago, we were coming in there one time. It was kind of low overcast, maybe about a thousand-foot nighttime, snow conditions. And we broke out and all you could see was a sea of red beacons around the whole airport because everything was getting messed up.

Doug Cameron (15:17)
Yeah.

Geoff Murray (15:18)
Yup.

Doug Cameron (15:23)
No.

Dennis Taylor (15:42)
People were stuck at the gates, people get out, so we landed and it wasn't because we had to taxi slow, it's because they had no place to put us. Everything was starting to back up. Then you hear two airplanes nose to nose where someone made a wrong turn and now they're sitting there, now they get tugs out there, they're pushing back and it just, it turns into a very long night.

Geoff Murray (15:44)
Yeah.

Doug Cameron (15:50)
Red light.

Yeah, and all the time it's maybe still snowing and they're trying to clear it around the plains as well. yeah, active, active is.

Dennis Taylor (16:09)
Right.

Yeah, we were there one time I saw it. was a triple seven. They had a tug on it. They're going to push him back. The tug couldn't get enough traction to push him back. So, they got another tug behind that tug to push that tug so that you get the airplane push back. So, I don't know if that was in the procedures, but.

Doug Cameron (16:26)
Thank

Geoff Murray (16:32)
Yeah, doubtful. Yup.

Dennis Taylor (16:34)
Doubtful.

Doug Cameron (16:35)
So Geoff,

what would be a kind of normal turnaround at Bentonville or North West Arkham? So what was your plan A as opposed to what sounds like plan B, C and D coming on?

Geoff Murray (16:46)
So

our scheduled turn time there is typically around 40 minutes. Enough time to get everybody off the airplane, get some more fuel.

You know, get the new passengers on the airplane, brief everything, prepare the airplane for flight. In 40 minutes is usually more than enough time. I mean, if we had to turn an airplane in a real rush, we could do it in 10 or 15 minutes. But, you we were scheduled for 40 minutes. It turned out to be a lot longer than that. You know, we had to take our time getting everybody off the airplane, getting the, you know, the new set of passengers on the airplane with a slippery jetway.

Doug Cameron (17:03)
Yeah.

Geoff Murray (17:25)
Even the rampers took extra time to load the bags, the fueler to get the fuel, and our fuel load was changing because we also needed another alternate. And Dennis and Noma, I'm going to put you guys on the spot. We needed what's known as a takeoff alternate because the weather was still so bad there. The visibility was half a mile, ceiling was 200 feet. You know, it was snowing and we needed this thing called the takeoff alternate. Noam, you want to talk a little bit about that?

Doug Cameron (17:57)
It's a very confusing term, yeah, Noam, you better tell us what that means.

Noam Alon (18:01)
Sure, so think about it like this. If, on a normal day, if you have an engine failure or some other mechanical problem, the assumption is you're not going to your destination. You're going to come back either to the airport you're at or something nearby. You're going to deal with that mechanical problem and then come right back. But if the weather is so bad at the place you're taking off that that's no longer a possibility, then you need an alternate plan, basically. I mean, we're very good about planning in aviation.
You need a plan where you're to go if you can't get back into, in this case, Northwest Arkansas. And so the good news is it's not extra, extra fuel. It's fuel you would have used to go to your destination. But it's just, it's really the alignment of the minds between the dispatcher and the captain and the crew to basically say, okay, if you have some problem, we're not going to the destination. We're going to go here. And the weather's good and or good enough. And especially, you know, when we talk about the scenario here where the whole region is probably struggling with whether that could be a challenge but in any case that's what a takeoff alternative

Geoff Murray (19:02)
Yep. So, so we needed to take off alternate and we got to coordinate with dispatch, agree on that. Okay. We're going to have, and I actually think it was, I can't even remember what airport we used as our takeoff alternate. needed a, you know, a takeoff alternate. can't remember. We were going to Denver, Salt Lake. We needed an alternate there. So was a pretty complex planning process, just getting the whole flight plan together. So we, you know, we miraculously managed to get everybody boarded, get the fuel on board.

Doug Cameron (19:03)
Got it.

Geoff Murray (19:32)
You know, we go outside, we do a preflight, make sure everything is fine with the aircraft. We're ready to push. Hey, you know, and we're coordinating now with operations at Northwest Arkansas. Hey, we're going to push. We're covered with snow. You know, we're going to need to be de-iced. And they're like, yep, we don't de-ice here at the gate. You go out to this cargo ramp, you know, quarter mile away. So we get the motors going. We head on over the cargo ramp.

Doug Cameron (19:54)
Yeah.

Geoff Murray (19:58)
We get the airplane configured for de-icing. We shut the motors down. They start de-icing. And what do you think happens next?

Doug Cameron (20:07)
Well, either something broke or something ran out would be my big guess there. And by the way, Geoff, you've said before you prefer the icing at a pad rather than at the gate because one, doesn't tie up the gate and usually it seems to make the resource management better at the pad. That didn't work out. So did something break or did something run out?

Geoff Murray (20:29)
Something ran out, but you remember from one of the early podcasts we needed, we were covered with snow. We were actually covered with snow, much snow that the front wind screens looked like your car when you go out to a parking lot after it's been sitting overnight in the snow. We couldn't see forward. We had to open up the side windows, get our gloves, know, wipe down the windows that we could see to just taxi over to the de-ice pad.

Doug Cameron (20:44)
Yeah. That's something no passenger should ever see, by the way.

Geoff Murray (20:59)
Yeah, yeah. Well, was funny when we were doing it, there were people in the terminal looking at us. And we're literally like wiping down the, wiping down the windscreen.

Doug Cameron (21:06)
Yeah.

Noam Alon (21:08)
They're taxiing like this with their heads out the side of the window.

Doug Cameron (21:10)
These are professional. The big glove. Great.

Geoff Murray (21:12)
Yes, exactly, But fortunately

Noam Alon (21:15)
with their goggles

Geoff Murray (21:16)
brought, yeah exactly, I got my ski goggles, winter gloves, all that stuff. So, we make our way out to the de-icing pad. We're covered with snow, so we need type one and type four.
De-icing fluid actually type one is the de-icing fluid to get the ice off the airplane then we need the type four anti-icing fluid we get all through the type one process plane is cleaned off that takes 30 minutes or so then they start with the type four they get about three quarters of the way through the airplane and We're now covered, you know the wings all the critical surfaces are covered with this fluid about three quarters of the way through the process And we can see the guy looking out the window and he's spraying and this sprayer runs out of runs out of fluid.

Doug Cameron (22:01)
no.

Geoff Murray (22:06)
So, we can't take off with just the left wing clean and the right wing still got some snow on it. So, so we coordinate, coordinate with ops and they're like, okay, you know, we ran out of fluid, you know, what can we do? And, know, they're, they're, figuring this out. Half hour goes by and they're like, Hey, we have a plan. We're going to send you over to the deicing pad for another airline. We're like, great. Yep.

Doug Cameron (22:10)
No. Okay, it's very collegiate.

Geoff Murray (22:36)
Different part of the airport. Get the motors going, turn on the seatbelts, make sure everybody's up out of the labs, all that stuff, which is in itself a process as I know Dennis and Noam can talk about. Make our way over to the other pad, shut down the motors. We're number two. There's an airplane in front of us.

Doug Cameron (22:53)
Geoff, just before you tell us what happens next, Dennis, you'd mentioned before, Dallas running out of fuel. Two things come to mind. I thought usually it's the airports responsible for de-icing rather than the airline. So, is it a mixture? Is it sometimes the airline has its own operation and sometimes it's the airport? I'm curious.

Dennis Taylor (23:15)
I would say that hubs, Noam, probably could be better to answer this. You know, when we were at the icing at the gates, the airlines took responsibility for that. Now that they've moved these to a pad, I'm not sure if the airlines have all ponied up money for that. To be honest with you, I'm not sure the correct answer on that. I know it used to be United at Chicago, at our gates. They were United people doing the airplanes. Right. So, I'm not sure. Do you know now what they're doing?

Geoff Murray (23:45)
And similarly, American or Delta, that kind of thing. Yep.

Doug Cameron (23:47)
Yeah. Got it.

Noam Alon (23:50)
Yeah, think you got it right. think when it's at the gate, it's the airline and when it's at a pad, it's a function of whether it's a shared pad or a dedicated pad. If it's shared, it's the airport and if it's dedicated, it's probably the airline.

Dennis Taylor (24:05)
Gotcha.

Doug Cameron (24:05)
So, Geoff you were getting a hand from another airline but...

Geoff Murray (24:11)
Exactly. So, we're primed, ready to go. We're like, hey, you know, we're behind this other jet for another airline, ready to go. The operations of the airline calls us and says, hey, hey, you're now number three because we got another departure for the other airline that needs to go. And of course they're going to take preference over the secondary airline. So, you know, this one airplane get de-ice, they take off, another one cuts in, effectively cuts in front of us, you know, they spend 40 or 45 minutes between the type one and the type four getting de-iced. The next thing we know, another one is going to get sequenced in front of us. We're like, you know, we're not sure this is going to end, because there could be another one after that. So we're, you know, basically placing bets on whether, you know, we'll actually get de-iced. And an important DOT rule starts kicking in when you get close to three hours, which you are probably familiar with from your time doing aviation reporting. Do you remember that rule?
Well, I think you'll find passengers are increasingly familiar with it as well. They'll see news stories about the fines that are levied on airlines that do go over, particularly substantially over the three hour rule. So I think it's something that's beginning to become more common knowledge. And I guarantee there would have been one passenger in your cabin who was looking at their watch thinking, yeah.

Geoff Murray (25:45)
Exactly. Exactly.

Dennis Taylor (25:45)
Hey Doug, Doug another on the deicing now that I'm doing it on the corporate side you know when we're flying the airlines you go to the deice pad you get the ice we don't think much about other than getting the ice and how long before we take off when you have a credit card you have to go pay for it and you go and I need to get the ice and it's six seven eight hundred dollars it's kind of a shock on how much this cost when there's the icing or a deicing event required at an airport.

Noam Alon (26:19)
I'll be honest, Dennis, that seems reasonable. thought it would be a lot more. How much is it for Geoff?

Geoff Murray (26:23)
Yeah, when you were saying six or seven, was like waiting for six or seven thousand. Right. But still, that's a lot of money. It's a lot of money.

Noam Alon (26:30)
I guess the function also of how big the aircraft is, how much fluid you're using. Yeah. Wow.

Dennis Taylor (26:32)
True. Correct.

Geoff Murray (26:35)
Right. So, so that DOT rule... Yep. So, the DOT rule, we're getting close. We're getting close to the three hours. It's like two and a half hours. We're all looking at our watches. We're talking to the flight attendants. We're making PAs. The guy was flying with was great. Literally, he set a timer every 15 minutes. He was every 15 minutes, hey, this is the latest. This is what's going on. And he's like, folks, we've all been on the airplane for two and a half hours.

Doug Cameron (26:37)
The clock is ticking on Geoff Murray's aircraft.

Yeah.

Geoff Murray (27:05)
There's, you know, two more aircraft in front of us to get de-iced. We're not sure this is going to work out. So, we're going to head back to the gate. So, so we, we, we, we leave the de-icing pad and you get the motors going again, get everybody seated down, make our way to the gate. Of course, the gate is once again, cover, I mean, the jetways covered with snow and all that stuff, but we're in front of it. This time we de-plane everybody, you know, figure out what's going on.

Doug Cameron (27:32)
Watch your step is what I assume you told everybody. I assume you told everyone to watch their step, deplaning.

Geoff Murray (27:35)
Pardon? Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're like, you know, stay near the gate area. You know, hopefully we'll figure out what's going on and what do you think happens next?

Doug Cameron (27:50)
I hate to think, go on, put us out of our misery.

Geoff Murray (27:53)
It is snowing so heavy that they can't keep the runway clear anymore for any aircraft, so they shut down the air.

Doug Cameron (28:05)
Okay.

Geoff Murray (28:06)
Yep. So, airports now shut down and by now we've been there for like five and a half, six hours. Like we've been there. We're supposed to be in Palm Springs now. I'm supposed to be enjoying a, you know, a cool drink by a pool somewhere. And instead we're sitting in, you know, in snowy Bentonville, Arkansas. So, the airport shuts down. And again, I don't want it to be a monologue. So, you know, we try to get a hotel. Well, a lot of people are stuck in Bentonville because flights are canceled, people can't depart, that kind of thing. So our crew team can't find us a hotel nearby. So, they're looking around, they finally find a hotel, realizing that another flight canceled and we're getting their rooms. So, and again, we're in Bentonville, not a lot of snow, lot of folks with experience in snow. Hotel Van comes and gets us, takes about an hour for them to get out to the airport.

Doug Cameron (28:45)
Okay.

Geoff Murray (29:04)
And the van driver is clearly not driven a lot in the snow, gets on the interstate and starts going 65 miles an hour. This story gets better in heavy snow and starts passing cars on the right. So as we're passing a car on the right, the van starts to slide out and we end up in a snowman. Nothing, nothing crazy serious. We don't.

Doug Cameron (29:13)
No. Yeah.

Yeah.

Geoff Murray (29:34)
you know, like roll over anything, but the car just kind of slow motion slides into a snowbank. We try to get, you know, everybody outside to push the van out. We can't get the van going. So we have to call for an Uber on the side of a highway in Arkansas to get up. And we're all in uniform. Like we're in uniform. We got our caps and all that stuff waiting for an Uber, which of course takes an hour. We get to the hotel. I could go on for hours and hours.

Doug Cameron (29:50)
Okay. Yeah.

Geoff Murray (30:04)
Next day was just as bad. We spend the night in Bentonville. Folks there were great. Took great care of us. Great hotel, great restaurants and all that. Nice spot. Head out to the airport the next morning. Still tons of snow. Still trouble clearing the airport. We finally leave Bentonville about 25 and a half hours after we were originally scheduled to leave. So it was just one of those examples and you could come up with a list of bullet points.

Dennis Taylor (30:12)
Thank

Noam Alon (30:27)
Wow.

Doug Cameron (30:32)
See ya.

Geoff Murray (30:32)
of why you want to avoid airports that are being delayed due to weather.

Noam Alon (30:39)
And one thing I would add, Doug, one thing I would add.

Doug Cameron (30:39)
And I was going to say particularly those which are used to particularly adverse weather and might not have the resources of a major hub in the north. I mean, sometimes you have to go there, you have to just increase your contingency planning, particularly during periods of adverse weather. Sorry, no, I'm on you go.

Geoff Murray (30:48)
Right.

Noam Alon (31:04)
Now I was going to say if you ever get notice from your airline that your flight is delayed because your crew was delayed getting their necessary rest, this might have been, I don't know Geoff if this happened to you, but if it took them four hours to get to the hotel and they were supposed to leave pretty early, you know the crew needs a little bit of rest when they get to the hotel and sometimes it takes a while.

Geoff Murray (31:22)
Right, need our 10 hours of rest. Yep. Which ended up not being the case in that example, but I've had other ones, Nome, where you get somewhere, and the van can't get to the airport quickly. I mean, it's delayed for whatever reason. I mean, it's just...

Noam Alon (31:25)
Right. Yeah.

Geoff Murray (31:38)
You know, you think of everything that could have gone wrong and it probably did go wrong. Starting with people sliding on the jetway, you know, not being a cat to airport. The theme here is you just want to avoid flying in those kinds of conditions. You want to try to fly in front of it before the weather gets there or after it if you can. And if it's a hub airport, you just want to avoid it. You want to fly over another hub.

Doug Cameron (31:47)
Yeah. It makes a good story, but Dennis, I'm sure you've got your own versions of these where Murphy's Law, everything that could go wrong, did. How do you kind of mentally shake that off? Because you are, you're going to fly again, there will be another flight, boxes will be ticked, the runway will be swept. But how do you kind of shake that off to go on to the next one, so to speak, when you have had everything go wrong?

Dennis Taylor (32:32)
You just take each problem as it comes, solve that problem and you move on. Kind of the day is a checklist. You're presented with a problem, you prioritize it. Where does it fall and what I have to get accomplished and keep moving forward to eventually you're going to get the airplane take off as long as you meet all the conditions that Geoff and Noam had mentioned, takeoff alternates, runway condition.

Doug Cameron (32:35)
Yeah. It's a checklist.

Dennis Taylor (32:57)
You know, are the passengers, can we get the jet way up there? You know, each problem presents itself, you solve the problem, and you move on.

Noam Alon (33:04)
I mean, I would say based on the way Geoff described the story, was a lot of delays, but actually they did everything right. Not just the crew, but the airport. They were all following the steps to make sure that the most important thing that everybody was safe was, in fact, accomplished. And sometimes that means you run out of time and you cancel the flight. But it actually seems like a success in terms of the processes of aviation.

Doug Cameron (33:13)
Yeah.

Geoff Murray (33:30)
Absolutely. Yeah, there was no doubt. I still stay in touch with the captain I was flying with that day. And we both, you know, we were rerunning checklists. I mean, your performance almost increases because you know, you're in, you know, you're in different conditions than, know, a normal everyday, you know, VMC type flying. So it was like no big deal. A feed call for a checklist and we did it twice because it was like, hey, let's just take our time.
make sure we got everything all set. I can't even tell you how many times I went back in the cabin, you know, to look at the wings. You know, I recognize, you know, the folks who were sitting in 11 alpha and that kind of thing. was just, you know, you're just taking your time.

Doug Cameron (34:13)
One thing that didn't maybe go according to plan was running out of a particular kind of de-icing fluid part way through the process. So, a couple of things spring to mind there. One, how common is that? And secondly, where do you go to get more? mean, did someone sign off to the store? Did someone forget to check the tanker? It was just so busy and so much going on that, yeah, maybe they didn't check the level, so to speak.

Geoff Murray (34:29)
Yeah. Yeah, they didn't and they admitted it. had, overnight they had sent another truck in from another airport or maybe one that had more de-icing fluids. When we came out in the morning, because we did need to be de-iced again, you know, they were in front of it, all over it. I think this weather system in particular, while it had been forecast to have some snow associated with it, the volume of snow was much, much higher than anybody had anticipated.

Doug Cameron (35:13)
And like you say, it was a large regional storm, so airports all over were all, I'm sure, all seeking additional fluid just to deal with the sheer volume of demand.

Noam Alon (35:13)
And I'll say...

Geoff Murray (35:18)
Right.

Noam Alon (35:24)
Yeah, Doug,

Geoff Murray (35:24)
Right. Yeah.

Noam Alon (35:25)
I'll tell you, mean, based on what Geoff said with what do you say 14 and a half inches of snow?

Geoff Murray (35:31)
it was Rochester, New York level snow.

Doug Cameron (35:35)
Yeah.

Noam Alon (35:35)
Yeah, that's just a lot of snow. That'd be tough even for a Minneapolis or a Chicago, even though they'd have more equipment. That's, because you're talking probably two inches an hour of snowfall. That's just challenging.

Geoff Murray (35:49)
Yeah, it was remarkable. I mean, the amount of snow, literally, it reminded me of being a kid in Rochester, New York. Tons of snow.

Doug Cameron (35:59)
So, Geoff, did you ever make it to Palm Springs?
Geoff Murray (36:02)
Still haven't made it to Palm Springs. That overnight went away. It's still on my to-do list. Yep, gotta get there.

Dennis Taylor (36:02)
Thank

Doug Cameron (36:04)
I know.

Noam Alon (36:12)
So, Geoff, can I?

Doug Cameron (36:12)
I haven't been

so I can't tell what you've missed or otherwise but I'm sure we'll make it.

Geoff Murray (36:16)
No.

Noam Alon (36:18)
In

the irony of ironies, you know where I'm going tomorrow, Geoff?

Doug Cameron (36:25)
no!

Geoff Murray (36:26)
Are you really?

Noam Alon (36:27)
Yeah.

Geoff Murray (36:30)
my god, and that's your overnight?

Doug Cameron (36:31)
Ugh.

Noam Alon (36:33)
No, I was just there for an hour, so I guess it's not quite the same.

Geoff Murray (36:35)
Okay, okay. I've

Dennis Taylor (36:35)
go.

Geoff Murray (36:36
Never even been there. I mean, I was going through, you know, the approach plates days in advance because there's all that terrain around the airport. I couldn't wait. Didn't happen. Yep, didn't happen.

Noam Alon (36:45)
It's beautiful.

Doug Cameron (36:50)
Gentlemen, anything else we want to add to this? This tale of woe, but which ultimately showed that the system works because of the training, because of the processes, because of the planning. Yes, it can be frustrating, but ultimately everyone got where they had to go safely. No, anything else you want to add here?

Noam Alon (37:08)
No. Exciting day for Geoff. Good job.

Geoff Murray (37:12)
Yeah.

Doug Cameron (37:12)
Yeah, well, you know, we'll all put our heads down and hope that one day he makes it to Palm Springs for another night. So, thanks everyone. You've been watching the KnowEntry podcast brought to you by KnowDelay. Feel free to subscribe at nodelay.com. You can find the button. So, know them along. Dennis Taylor and Geoff Murray. Thanks very much. See you all next time.

Geoff Murray (37:18)
One day. One day.

Dennis Taylor (37:37)
Thank you.

Geoff Murray (37:38)
Thank you.

Noam Alon (37:39)
Great day.

Doug Cameron (00:01)
Hi and welcome to the KnowEntry podcast from the folks of KnowDelay where we take you behind the cockpit door, hopefully to make your travel experience just a little bit easier by giving you the knowledge and most importantly some of the questions to ask.
So, today we're going to talk about ground delays and ground stops. It's something you don't want to hear when you get to the gate. had a quick look at the FAA website this morning. It's coldest January. And no ground stops right now but warnings that they might come or ground delays at Tampa, Denver, San Francisco, Dallas, Fort Worth. So, there could be some problems in train. Now here to tell me how it works is Neil Malone, Geoff Murray and Dennis Taylor. Geoff, maybe just start with just the difference between a ground delay and a ground stop. A ground stop sounds worse, a delay doesn't sound fun either. What's the quick hit on the difference?

Geoff Murray (00:56)
Sure, so, they're both bad and as we talked about in an earlier podcast, the big difference between a ground stop and a ground delay program is a ground stop program is immediate. It's generally the result of weather or an event that immediately impacted an airport and a ground and that means all aircraft destined for that airport, nobody can take off. A ground delay program is generally longer term in nature associated with longer, bigger, longer lasting weather events and they mean that an aircraft will be delayed perhaps by 45 minutes an hour or 30 minutes to its destination. So, if you were gonna leave it 4 p.m. Let's say and there's a 45 minute ground stop you'd leave it 4 45 p.m. Excuse me a 45 minute ground delay it means you'd leave it 4 45 p.m. instead of 4.

Doug Cameron (01:49)
We'll come on to who decides these, what's the surprise element for passengers? It's an unpleasant surprise. For crew members and planners, whether you're in the cockpit, in the briefing room or on your way to the airport, when do you generally learn that there's either one in place or one coming down the pipe?

Noam Alon (02:11)
Well, I would say. When it relates to weather. If we're talking about winter weather, we can usually anticipate them because we can see when the forecast is. you know, there's, as Geoff mentioned, there are lots of groups from the air traffic control center and the local airports and all the various entities that work together plan those out. when the weather actually materializes, that's when those programs go into effect. Usually, the ground delay program is one where there's a little bit of anticipation.

There's an expectation that the weather will arrive and things will slow down and so, the ground delay program can be put in place that way. It's when there's a little bit of a surprise, maybe the weather is a little bit worse than anticipated or arrives a little earlier than anticipated that you get a ground stop to basically say, hey, we need to, we can't accept the number of arrivals that we anticipated. So, we have to stop upstream, stop aircraft that haven't yet departed so, we can handle the ones that are already in the air.

Doug Cameron (03:11)
Then I say if there is a stop or a delay program in situ, is there a pecking order? Is everyone affected the same? Do big planes get priority to go first when a stop is lifted? How does that kind of work? Do you tend to fly international? 787s? Does that mean you get affected a little bit less, shall we say, than those who are flying RJs?

Dennis Taylor (03:35)
It's a mixed bag. would say internationally coming inbound, we're already airborne when this happens and so, we get in without much delay. It can have the reverse effect though for taxing out and they stop operations for a thunderstorm or something like that then we're affected just like everybody else. As far as big airplane versus smaller plane, it starts becoming the airlines making the decisions on which flights they want to

release. Geoff might have a little bit more insight on that or know them about how at the SOC level or situation control how they manage those type of flights.

Doug Cameron (04:19)
As one mentioned, weather's a good indication that you might be facing a grind stop or a grind delay. And of course, you can go across and subscribe, but no delay, and get some advanced warning of some of the weather and the ripple effects. But I mentioned I looked at the FAA website before we started recording, and there it was in black and white, the warnings of delays and stops. know, Geoff, I'll start with you. Who presses the button and decides that there's gonna be?

Either a stop in place or that it might, which is what the FAA website says, there might be one from lunchtime or whatever. What's the sort of decision-making process?

Geoff Murray (04:59)
So, the decision making is collaborative. It's not kind of a unilateral individual or pilot or airport manager who makes that decision. And most of the ground delays and even some of the ground stops are anticipated. So, the FAA controlled center in Washington DC, which is monitoring air traffic all over the country.

We'll be looking, for example, at, there's some thunderstorms that could develop this afternoon in the southeast. So, let's anticipate some ground delay programs in places like Atlanta, Charlotte, maybe Dallas, Houston, that kind of thing. So, they can anticipate those. Then they work with the airport manager to say, hey, are you in agreement that we may need to have a ground stopper ground delay program? And then the airlines is, as Dennis mentioned,

also, get looped into these decisions and the airlines will be informed, hey, we're likely going to have a ground delay. It's going to mean an arrival rate of 20 aircraft instead of 40. And then the airline makes their decisions on which aircraft are going to benefit from those, you know, from those remaining arrival slots, if that makes sense.

Doug Cameron (06:13)
It does, and no, know, inside out, that kind of, I'll use the phrase pecking order again inside an airline. So, how does that work? What's the operational thinking about who gets those precious slots if there is some sort of

Noam Alon (06:28)
Yeah, that's a great question. Just to follow up real quick on what Geoff said, there's actually a scheduled call.

Everyday multiple phone calls. Call them the TRACON calls. anyway, multiple ones every day. When the weather is good and nothing happened, those calls are very short. When there's more weather involved and all that collaboration that Geoff talked about gets discussed and that happens. As far as the pecking order, so, once the ground delay program is put into place, there are X number of slots and then it's up to the airline to decide which airplanes get the slots and which ones get pushed back. And ultimately, if the delays are significant, which flights get canceled. And what airlines will typically do is prioritize the flights that are, you know, the ones that cannot be, that are already in the air, right? So, those get in. Then you've got airplanes that, for example, you know, higher number of passengers or high, you know, important connections or flights that, airplanes that represent a flight to somewhere else that's really important, typically international.

And then as a general rule, the bigger the airplane, the more likely it is to remain on schedule or to have the least amount of delay. And that's just a function of overall revenue and how you keep the most number of people flowing through the system, which is what the airlines are trying to do.

Doug Cameron (07:49)
Okay, so, lots of careful planning, but how fluid can the situations be? Because again, I look at the FAA website, great source for everyone to check, but it's a possibility and it gives the timeframe. How often can that change? And I guess can they be lifted early, which every passenger would like if it says there might be one until five o'clock. Can all these stakeholders decide actually, because of changing conditions, it can lift it too. And you can all go back to...

Noam Alon (08:09)
Right.

Doug Cameron (08:18)
…to normal flying pattern. So, just how fluid is the situation and what can passengers do just to update themselves as much in real time as they

Noam Alon (08:29)
Yeah, it's fluid because it's a function of the weather and what's happening at the local airport. What I would say is as a general rule, you know, there's a real balancing act trying to be too conservative and lower the arrival rate, which will be predictable, but have a larger impact versus allowing more flights to come in, which, you know, minimizes the delay, but then might risk having to recalibrate and then surprise people with more delays. So, there's a real balancing act that the various, you know, constituents are trying to figure out. As a function, I think the airlines do a pretty good job, certainly as meteorology has gotten better.

The delays tend to be pretty manageable, but it is fluid. And I think the best thing to do, the advice we always give, what I do myself, I try to avoid that airport in the first place. And that's what no delay does, is helps you to avoid the situation altogether.

Doug Cameron (09:26)
Yeah, okay. Geoff, the skies are busier than ever. We've all read about ATC staffing shortages as well. But over the years of your career, has the system become more efficient to kind of compensate just for those higher levels of traffic?

Geoff Murray (09:42)
I'd say that the system, yes, in general has become more efficient. I think where it's becoming more constrained is at some of the hub airports because at the hub airports, airlines are trying to connect more travelers over those hub airports and that kind of thing. They can mean more volume, bigger aircraft and that kind of thing. And when weather moves through those airports, it can really gum things up for a connecting, for a next.

For connecting passenger. think, you one other important dimension to talk about with respect to both ground delays and ground stops is as pilots, we can also, anticipate a lot of those. No one was talking about looking at the weather, but generally an hour before we're scheduled to depart, we'll get our flight release, our flight plan. And many times the amount of fuel that we have on that flight release can be indicative of whether the airline is anticipating.

There could be a ground stop. So, you may be sitting on the ground with your motors running for a while, or you may have to hold and that kind of thing. So, you know, after the command center in Washington, in conjunction with the airport and the airline has made these decisions, those decisions flow to the different, you know, interested parties and the airlines will reflect those probabilities in the flight plans for the individual aircraft. So, that's also, meant that this system has gotten more efficient because that decision making is more distributed. It's wider known, just as you noticed when you looked at the FAA page this morning and that kind of thing. So, it's gotten more efficient, but it's still when weather comes up in airport, it can really gum things up.

Doug Cameron (11:29)
Hubs are obviously more affected. It may be tough for passengers to ride around a hub. Dennis, you have to commute into hubs sometimes. Has this kind outlook ever looked so, extreme that you've taken an alternative route just to avoid a hub even though you've ultimately got to get there for your own flight?

Dennis Taylor (11:49)
Oh, many times. I've, uh, trying to get to Chicago and sometimes Midway will still be operating. Not always, but sometimes they will. Uh, yeah, that's a good example of going to different airports when you need to. And a point you brought up a minute ago where it gets frustrating, I think for the, uh, customer is you watch the airlines when they post their times and you get a noon flight and then it's posted. Now it's going to be leaving at 1245 and then 115.

Doug Cameron (11:56)
Okay.

Dennis Taylor (12:19)
Because airlines don't want to get a time way out there because now once they put that in there they're stuck with that time so, you'll see these kind of rolling delays trying to you know they want to get their plan out as soon as they can but they can't post a time so, late that people show up and say hey you said three o'clock I'm here how did you leave at two o'clock so, it's a like Noam just said it's an interesting dance the airlines have to play in order to maximize getting airplanes out and get the customers where they need to be

Doug Cameron (12:50)
That's great, thanks Dennis, well Noam and Geoff as well. So, ground stops and ground delays are just a fact of life and the best advice we can offer is to check back, check back often, the FAA website. Don't forget to subscribe to No Delay where you can get advanced notice of some of what we might call the causal factors in these necessary for safety.

So, until next time, gentlemen, thanks very much.

Doug Cameron (00:01)
Hi and welcome to the KnowEntry podcast from the folks at KnowDelay, where we take you behind the cockpit door, hopefully to provide you with information from some seasoned pilots that can make your travel experience just a little bit less stressful. So, we've talked a lot about icing on the ground and weather conditions and how that can add to delays. What about icing in the air? You're flying high, doesn't matter what the season is, it's cold up there.
So, what difference does it make? Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the technology has moved on. But let's go through some of the issues. Geoff, ice in flight, why is that a bad thing? I think I can guess, but I think you can provide a more scientific and professional answer.

Geoff Murray (00:46)
Sure. So, and as a team, we had a little bit of debate earlier about this very topic, but ice in the air generally doesn't result in a delayed flight. It dramatically degrades the performance of the aircraft. There are certain types of icing conditions, severe icing that we can't fly in, but those are few and far between. For the most part, once the airport and the airlines taking care of us, getting us off the ground,

We've been de-iced, which we talked about on our earlier podcast. Once we're in the air, generally the aircraft, not generally, mean, the aircraft can handle those icing conditions and that kind of thing, but it's something we're really cognizant of because again, it saps the performance from the airplane.

Doug Cameron (01:34)
Dennis, what kind of cockpit information or controls or displays do pilots have to let them know about icing conditions and that they're being handled by the aircraft systems?

Dennis Taylor (01:45)
Well, that differs on different airplanes. Some of the original airplanes or the older airplanes, you're looking out the window and see if there's ice building up on the windshield wiper. have, you know, that's one way to look. Well, yeah, if you go back to this. Yeah, and.

Doug Cameron (01:59)
That's very old school. You just take the wipers.

Geoff Murray (02:02)
But we still do that today. We still do that today. All of us do. Absolutely. Yep.

Dennis Taylor (02:08)
And small general-aviation airplanes, you you're looking outside, looking at your wing and seeing if you're building up ice. You get to the more modern airplanes. It's all, most of the anti-ice systems are automatic. They have sensors out there. They pick it up. The engine anti-ice, the wing anti-ice will come on automatically on some of the newer airplanes. So, it's a little mixed bag. But all the newer jets, it's pretty automatic. No? You had a question?

Noam Alon (02:38)
No, no, I was just scratching my eye.

Dennis Taylor (02:39)
I thought...

Doug Cameron (02:41)
Well, just on that, with your operations background, the aircraft have the systems to both detect and deal with it. It sounds kind of obvious, are these critical systems that in a checklist, if something's not working, I don't know, there's a fuse out in the warning light, that plane's not going up. that basically how it works? It's critical enough?

Noam Alon (03:07)
It's extremely critical. It does vary by airplane. What I would say is as a general rule, we're trying to prevent ice from building in the first place. So, a lot of the systems are anti-ice, So, that we're sending heat to the wing, to the engines, to the other critical surfaces to make sure ice doesn't build in the first place. If, for example, So, with a lot of these airplanes, I think the 787 is electric, but with a lot of the airplanes, you're sending heat from the engine. If that heat is not available because of a mechanical issue, like a valve doesn't open or something, then that really can limit your ability to fly and therefore a delay because you don't want to have asymmetrical anti-icing where one wing, for example, is de-iced and another one is not. So, in that case, you're going to have to make a decision as a crew whether you can change altitude to get out of the icing or if you can't, then you have to divert and handle that situation that way.

Geoff Murray (03:55)
You

Doug Cameron (04:08)
I like the idea of the wipers as a line of defense. just changed the wipers on my car last week. Have you guys ever had the wipers changed before takeoff, while you're in the cockpit? Have you ever seen someone up there changing them?

Geoff Murray (04:23)
I will say I have seen that. know, the wipers get changed and that kind of thing. But the big deal with the wipers is, know, when we've got advanced sensors on the external, you know, on the outside of the aircraft that are sending information into us to say, hey, we're in icing conditions, but everybody I fly with will get that icing warning. The first thing we're looking at is the windshield wiper to see if any ice is starting to accumulate on the windshield wiper. And even though when we're leaving the aircraft talking to the next crew,

Doug Cameron (04:26)
You

Geoff Murray (04:51)
We'll be like, hey, you we got a half inch or a quarter inch ice on the, you know, on the windows. You know, when you go outside and do your preflight, make sure you take a look and see if there's any, you know, ice that may not have been shed by the de-icing equipment on the airplane and that kind of thing. So, as rudimentary as it is, and it goes back to the 30s and 40s.

Doug Cameron (05:09)
No, I very much like the sound of it. Is actually conditioned something that's kind of passed down the chain? You mentioned about, know, pilots ahead of you, is that something that's passed through ATC or from planes running in the air saying, hey, you know, I'm looking at the wipers or Dennis is getting a warning and he's 787 or whatever. that something that sort of does the rounds?

Dennis Taylor (05:30)
Right, you'll pass it on, you'll check in on center, new frequency, there will be alerts that hey, pilots reporting icing from 11,000 to 15,000 feet. Just to let you know that, anticipate it, because some airplanes don't have quite the advanced system, So, obviously that's something they're going to make sure they avoid that area.

Noam Alon (05:52)
And just to that point, to that point, Doug.

Doug Cameron (05:53)
This is bit of a good news story. There doesn't seem to be a big impact on delays, which is great. It's one where the system and the technology and the training have kind of gelled together. ultimately, it, Geoff, I don't know if you've encountered this on the regional jet side, but can it actually lead to delays, maybe spacing out planes a bit more because of...

Geoff Murray (06:16)
Occasionally, and I had an example a couple of weeks ago where some aircraft were coming into O'Hare, they were getting de-icing, they were in icing conditions, and as a result, approach control increased the separation of aircraft, and I can't remember if maybe one or two of them went around, what exactly the situation was, but they increased the spacing. We had to hold for four or five minutes, then get re-sequenced into the arrival because the distance between the arriving aircraft that were experiencing these icing conditions, that distance was increased and that slowed down the arrival rate. But it doesn't happen that often.

Doug Cameron (06:58)
I think that's great gentlemen. At KnowEntry we try to provide not just examples of problems but also, examples where the industry has come together and found solutions and call it a good news story if you want and you can check out more information like this by subscribing to No Entry and of course check out KnowDelay for more information and some of the more problematic travel issues. So, Geoff, Dennis, Noam, thanks very much. Till next time, we'll see you then.

Doug Cameron: I've seen a couple of times a pilot come back through, through the cabin to make people a little bit wary. What are they, what are they looking at?
Geoff Murray: Well, usually when I'm going back there, because the fluid is strong, I will tell the passengers, Hey, that fluid's really strong. I'm just back here to make sure the wing is still attached. You know, so I'm back there like checking some bolts. I'm obviously kidding.

Narrator: Welcome to the KnowEntry podcast presented by no delay.

Doug Cameron: Fine. Welcome to the KnowEntry Podcast, where we take you behind the cockpit door, hopefully to provide expertise you wouldn't find anywhere else to make your travel experience just a little bit easier. In Chicago today, it's minus 16 with the windchill.
My car sorted. I did the anti freeze at the weekend, but we know that it's going to affect all mechanical instruments, and that includes something complex like a plane. So to lead us through, we've got Noam Alon. and Geoff Murray, two experienced pilots who've also worked across the airline industry in their long careers.
Let's start. Why does it matter when it's cold for a plane? What doesn't a plane like about the cold? I know what my car doesn't like. What about planes? No.

Noam Alon: Well, I mean, basically, beyond the similar things that you talked about with your car, so engines need time to warm up and mechanical things like the hydraulics need time to warm up as well. Beyond that, the basics of cold weather operation, especially when there's any kind of precipitation, snow, ice, something like that, is the airplane has to be what we call, In other words, it needs to be clear of any adhering frozen precipitation, snow or ice. So a big part of de icing, what people are familiar with, if they've flown in the winter time is getting that airplane clean. So that's the first part is getting it on clean on the ground. And then in the air, it's making sure that the airplane stays clear of adhering ice. And there's all sorts of systems on the aircraft that help keep the airplane clean so that wind can generate lift and the airplane can perform the way it's designed.

Geoff Murray: And that that's that is the big deal. The big deal is to fly, you got to have a wing. The wing can't have any stuff on it. So when you get out to the airport in the winter and you see that it snowed, it's like we got to get the snow off the wing. And that is part of literally D icing. You could also call it D snowing.
You're you just got to get all the snow, all the contamination, you All that stuff that could destroy the ability of the aircraft to generate lift and fly, we gotta get it off the airplane. So just like Noam said, the concept we use, really simple, is clean aircraft, and it means the aircraft doesn't have any contamination, no snow, ice, freezing ice pellets or anything on it before we take off. Pretty, fairly simple.

Doug Cameron: So, Noam, I suspect many passengers have experienced a bit of ground de icing. It sounds a little like you're going through a car wash sometimes. Maybe you could, you could let us know both what you might expect when a plane's being de iced on the ground, and also, what can also feed into delays sometimes, what can, what takes time?
How long does it take? I know how long it takes to go through a car wash. How long does it take to de ice a plane?

Noam Alon: It's a function of a couple of things, but for the most part, it's really, A process of taking any snow or ice that's on the airplane and removing that and there's a specific fluid that we use. It's a kind of an amberish color. It's applied hot to the airplane and it removes anything that's On the airplane, and then if there's no current precipitation, that's where it stops. All you need is an airplane to be clean. But if it's still snowing, then we apply a second type of chemical. We call it type 4 fluid, and it's green in color.
And that's applied cold, and what that does is it stays on those moving surfaces, like the wing, the tail, and all the flying portions of the wing and tail. To make sure that nothing can stick if it's still snowing and then there's a whole process that takes about 15 to 20 minutes I would say if the de icing truck is available right away And if you're the first airplane that is in queue to get de iced so about 15 or 20 minutes pretty quick But anyway, that's the process kind of like a car wash.

Geoff Murray: I think that's a good one. How do you know when you're finished? Good, good question Doug. So, we're communicating with the folks who are doing the actual de icing, the folks who are out on the de icing truck, they're telling us where they are on the aircraft, they're telling us, hey, we finished the type one, which just like Noam talked about is basically clearing the airplane. And that's just like Noam said, it's a warm fluid. So if you're sitting in the back of an airplane, you're watching an aircraft get de iced and you see steam coming off of it. You know, that's the type one fluid and what they're doing is clearing the airplane and they'll tell you when they're done with that.
Then they'll say we are starting the type four and the type four is the fluid just like Noam talked about It has a really interesting chemical Property to it that basically melts ice and snow for a certain period of time when that ice or snow touches the fluid. So the whole idea is they're spraying this green fluid.
And in the winter you've been O'Hare, Minneapolis, Detroit, you see planes taxiing around and it looks like they have green wings. And that means that that type four fluid has been applied to it. has been applied to the wings. So the guys doing the de icing or the women doing the de icing, they're telling us what they're doing, they're telling us where they are, and the most important thing they tell us is when they started and when they stopped.
So we started applying type 4 at 15 minutes after the hour, we finished the type 4 at 25 minutes after the hour, and then to get into some complexities that we'll talk about in another podcast, that chemical property. gives us the ability to taxi around the airplane to get down to the end of the runway to ensure that ice and snow won't continue to accumulate on the airframe.
So the quick answer to your question is we're in radio communication with the team and they tell us when they're done. Noam, do you ever have to do it twice if

Noam Alon: it keeps snowing? That can happen. So just like Geoff is saying, the chemicals have properties that they can handle a certain amount of precipitation, amount of snow.
And at some point they get saturated and then their property of keeping the wing clean ends. And so we have tables or we have now with technology, we've actually got an app that takes all the information into account and tells us the fluid will last, let's say 45 minutes or an hour. If we're taxing around beyond an hour, then we either have to check that the fluid is still maintaining its, its viscosity, or if it's lost it, then we have to go back.
And that's obviously a very frustrating element if you're looking from a delay perspective, because you think you're going to get to take off and be airborne and then you have to go back and get back in queue, that can be very frustrating, but we're always going to take safety as the first priority.
And if that's what we have to do, that's what we have to do.

Doug Cameron: Geoff, every driver might have their own scrape or every plane can have its own. de icing facility. So who decides and how is it decided who gets de iced first and where your, where your place in the line is?

Geoff Murray: So that's, that's actually a bit of a dance.
And in, at most airports, for example, in the morning, if there was precipitation overnight, the, the airport, the airline will actually go to every aircraft CNA to gate. And this just happened to me the other day because there's, there's some interesting elements associated with de icing fluid. It's really slippery.
So if you're a bozo pilot outside doing your pre flight, make sure you're wearing good shoes with a good heel so that you don't slip and fall. But they will go around the airport in the morning and they will spray every single airplane. And then, and typically with type one, right, typically with type one, exactly.
Noam with the type one, all they're doing is clearing the airplane. But then it is, as I'm sure Noam can attest to, it's a bit of a dance. Like we're all trying to, Hey, get everybody on board. Let's get the before start checklist done. Let's get the motors going so we can be first in line, but there's not like a.
Like a chess master up there who's saying, Hey, flight number one, two, three, you wait for this guy. It's a very, what's the word I want to use? Very, like, equitable system. I kind of, who, who makes the first radio call? There's no first call. Right. No, they, they, they spray Noam, Noam's airplane first.

Noam Alon: The only thing I want to add though and this is important, in addition to good shoes when you're doing the walk around is you got to be careful of a drip when you're looking up at the wing and a drip of that type I gets in your eye, it really burns. Yeah. And so, yeah, good, good shoes and a pair of goggles.
Yep, exactly.

Doug Cameron: Yep. Well, let's get the image of Geoff dancing in heels out of our minds here. I think I've seen a couple of times a pilot come back through the cabin. It can make people a little bit wary. What are they looking at? So literally, what guys are you looking at? Usually

Geoff Murray: when I'm going back there, because the fluid is strong, I will tell the passengers, hey, that fluid's really strong.
I'm just back here to make sure the wing is still attached. You know, so I'm back there like checking some bolts. I'm obviously kidding. We are going back. And it's a great question, Doug, and it doesn't happen all the time, by the way. As Noam mentioned earlier, there's this thing called the holdover time.
The holdover time says, under this precipitation type for this long, you got 30 or 40 minutes. But if we're, if we're close to the boundary of that, One of us, generally the first officer, which I'm a first officer, we'll go back, we'll make a PA, hey, we're coming back to the cabin, we'll go to the exit row, we'll look out the window, and what we're looking at is to make sure we don't see any contamination, snow or ice or anything, on any of the wing, period.
And then we use the wing, we'll go look at both wings, and if the wings are clear, the assumption, and it's a very good assumption because of the way they apply the fluid, is the tail will also be clear.

Doug Cameron: And it doesn't matter if you see the fluid, if it's blue fluid or whatever color it is on the wing, that's fine, as long as it's not a foot of snow.
Geoff Murray: Well, we, in my case, I will want to see that green fluid, and I want to make sure the green fluid is still adhering to the aircraft. Oh, it's sticking there. Right, I think it's
Noam Alon: really important to know, for all the viewers of this, We're making a decision in the cockpit whether we need to come back based on a lot of information.
Just because a pilot doesn't come back doesn't mean there's a problem. And you can trust that they're, the pilots are aware of what's happening. But anyway, yeah, that's an important piece.

Doug Cameron: Yeah, keep up the process. Okay, so it's very visible what happens on the ground. What about in the air? You know, aircraft have anti icing systems.
Firstly, can passengers, if it's clear, they actually see any of that? And secondly, how do you sort of monitor it from the cockpit and know that the anti icing systems are operating? And what are they actually doing? Noam, if you want to carry on there.

Noam Alon: Sure. I mean, for the most part, once the airplane is airborne, the only place that precipitation would stick is to the leading edges of the aircraft.
So like the leading edge of the wing. the leading edge of the tail, the horizontal stabilizer, things like that. And so we've got heated surfaces. So we basically take a little bit of hot air off of the engine and we circulate that along what you'll see from the wing is like the silver part of the wing.
So that's the heated part. For the most part, we do that as a preventative. In some cases, in some aircraft, it could be a little bit different where you let it build up. And then you turn on the, the heat and you'll actually as a passenger, if you see it building up and then you see a break off, what the pilots have done is they've turned on the heat, inflated what are called boots and you'll see a crack off and disappear.
So that's actually the system working as intended. And then for the engines, you're probably not going to see that because we turn the heat on generally pretty. And we anticipate it so we don't even let it build because we don't want anything getting in the in the engine. Now, it does vary a little bit by aircraft.
Geoff, I don't know if it's different on your airplane.

Geoff Murray: No, it's similar. I mean, on the, for example, the 787 does have a slightly different program for the anti icing in the plane that Noam and I fly the Embraer 175, Noam flies the 737, both of those airplanes have have literally pipes, small pipes coming off the engine that are routed through the leading edges of the wings and they they have small holes in them and they blow hot air on the leading edge of the wings and that makes the leading edge of the wings warm So it doesn't accumulate ice, but on a handful of aircraft, like the 787, it's electric, like very much like electric baseboard heat in your house.

Doug Cameron: So there's electric, it's or the heated rear window of your plane and your car, rather.

Geoff Murray: Exactly. Exactly. So it's, it's electrically generated. heat that is heating up the leading edges of the wings, the engine cowlings, the tail and that kind of thing. So, slightly different systems.
The electric system is lighter. It doesn't rob the engine of power. So there's a whole set of advantages to it, which is why Boeing elected to use it on the 787. That's a topic for another conversation because that's a whole another conversation.

Geoff Murray: Yeah. So to finish our flight, you've landed, is there any part of the de icing process which happens between landing and you getting to the gate?

Geoff Murray: I would say there isn't, but there is an important element to that, and the element is once we land, it's the anti icing system that helped us get on the ground, it made sure that the wings and the tail and the cowlings were all clear of ice and snow and all that stuff, but once we're on the ground, and it's a day like today in Chicago where it's like 15 degrees, and you're taxiing around in slush, That slush can start to accumulate on different parts of the airplane.
And what that means is the aircraft, this, this sounds a little goofy, is accumulating weight. So I've got ice that's starting to attach to the landing gear and all that stuff. But occasionally you'll go out to the airport and you'll see them de icing and they're spraying de icing like fluid on the landing gear and stuff.
They're like, why on earth are they doing that? And the reason they're doing that, is to get rid of the ice, which has weight to it. We want the airplane to be as light as it can for takeoff. So they're going through another process to clear the entire aircraft, including the landing gear, any of these areas where slush or rain and that kind of thing could accumulate and freeze to get that, to get that off the airplane.

Noam Alon: And one other thing that I think is important to note, because passengers might notice this, if that situation happens where there's accumulated snow or slush on the ground, on our, on my aircraft, we'll actually leave the flaps down, and which is unusual for most passengers. They might think, well, oh, they forgot to bring the flaps up.
What we are afraid of is that things will get thrown up on the wing. And what the de icing people need to do is basically keep that clean for the next flight. So we'll leave the flaps down so they can get all that cleaned off for the next flight.

Doug Cameron: Okay. Well, thanks, Noam. Well, I, I take maybe five minutes every week to de ice my car.
It's obviously no surprise that every flight during the cold winter months in the North is suitably treated for everybody's safety. So, Noam, Geoff, thanks very much. We've all learned a bit today. I've certainly learned a lot from these gentlemen. So, if you'd like to learn more, don't forget to subscribe to the No Engine podcast.
And if you want extra information on flight delays and help yourself prevent them, then take a look at the KnowDelay.com website. Thanks everyone and see you next time.

Narrator: Thanks for joining the KnowEntry Podcast. For more information, visit KnowDelay.com.

Doug Cameron: Does every airport in the U. S. actually have de icing equipment, even in the south? Have you ever been caught short?
Noam Alon: There's always a deicing system. It may require waiting for the sun to warm up the airplane.

Daniel: Welcome to the KnowEntry Podcast, presented by No Delay.

Doug Cameron: Hi and welcome to the KnowEntry Podcast, where we take you behind the cockpit door to provide Some knowledge that might make your travel experience just a little bit smoother. Joined by Noel Malone and Geoff Murray, both experienced pilots, and Doug Cameron, long time aviation journalist, always willing to learn.
So, it's cold outside. the icing. How necessary is it? We've seen it happen at the gate. We've seen these big machines come. It's like you're going through a giant car wash. Lead us through the mechanics and where does it happen?

Noam Alon: Thanks, Doug. This time of year, I mean, the most important thing is the airplane like we've talked about in previous podcasts.
The airplane has to be clean of any kind of frozen precipitation, snow, ice, things like that, frost. So, it really happens in one of two places, either at the gate, either before departure or immediately after you push back, or it happens at a remote site, and that's a function largely of airport rules, maybe the capacity of the number of trucks, things like that.
But as far as the gate, that's typically the place where, if it's a relatively standard situation, not a lot of accumulated snow, That's the most efficient way because a lot of it, the prep can be done before passengers even arrive with the first application of what we call type one fluid. That's the removal component.
And then type IV is applied typically right after you push back because there is a time limitation on how long that fluid will last. So you want that to be efficient. So if you expect largely that from that point you're going to taxi the runway and get airborne. At the gate is typically where it happens, but sometimes it happens at a remote pad.

So, Geoff, I know you've experienced that recently.

Geoff Murray: Yeah, so, I mean, like Noam talked about, I mean, typically, even as flight crews, pilots, we like to see it done at the gate. Passengers do too, because typically you're going to, you'll get done de icing. You can sequence with the folks, tower and ground control and get out for a takeoff.
But if it's a more impactful weather event, heavy snow, ice, winds, think of, almost blizzard type conditions, what will typically happen is the airport. In conjunction with the airlines will say we're going to use the de icing pad and it's a big area looks like in the summer months just goes to a big area of open taxiway, but in fact, there's a whole science that goes into where you're going to park and when you know they're going to start the application like Noam said of the type one and type IV feel of fluid but it's a it's a centralized location and what that means is you're going to leave the gate you're going to start the motors and the the wings in the airplane may still have snow on them.
And you're going to taxi over to, at O'Hare, it's called the CDF, the Central De Icing Facility. It's on the west side of the airport, so you got to spend 20 or 25 minutes taxiing over there. You got to get yourself positioned into one of the one of the spots where they're going to want you to de ice, you're going to talk to all these specialized de ice guys on the radio who are going to sequence you there. Then you're going to have to go through the process of shutting down the motors and all that stuff. And then what's going to happen, what's next? You shut down the motors. What's next?

Doug Cameron: Can I just ask, would you tell the passengers that in fact we're not off to the runway, we're off to the, we're off to the de icing pad.

Geoff Murray: Absolutely, because at some airports, and I won't mention any specifically, that de ice pad can be further from your departure runway than the gate. So, not only do you need to tell all the folks that, hey, we're going to de ice, but it's like, hey, we're going to de ice in the next literally like in the next county.
And then we're going to have to come back to our county to take off. So it's a, when you're going to the de icing pad almost anywhere except maybe Anchorage and a couple other airports that are just machines with this stuff, it takes a lot of time.

Noam Alon: A lot. So if you're in the back of the airplane and you hear the pilot say, we're going to the centralized de icing facility, it's going to take longer than if you had just been Deiced at the gate, but that may not be an option.
Like Geoff said, it's usually a function of conditions. Could be some other things, but usually a function of conditions that they just simply can't handle at the gate, right?

Geoff Murray: I mean, Noam and I fly with different pilots all the time. And I remember flying with one captain and we're all like when we're leaving our house or leaving our hotel and getting ready, to go out and fly, we're looking at certain apps to see whether we're going to deiced at the gate or whether they're using the.
Deicing facility and all that stuff. And one guy that I flew with, I mean, he, he, he would literally beg, borrow, and steal. He would talk to everybody who could, Hey, any chance we get de iced at the gate? Hey, any chance we can, can avoid the de icing pad because it just adds so much time.
And it also, it also makes it more complex for an Oman I. There's more procedures we need to do. We need to get the aircraft configured differently, but it's just. Really time consuming.
Doug Cameron: So, Noam, you have to turn off the engines before you can get de ice, either, either at the pad or at the gate?

Noam Alon: No, that's a function of procedure. For the most part, if it's at the gate, it's with the engines off. But at the remote pad, it's usually with the engines on. Got it. Okay.

Doug Cameron: I can see why it makes sense to do it at the gate just because of proximity, but doesn't it make just a big old mess, which might be easier to clear up on a pad, which, might have knock on effects on other planes.
So how do they kind of manage the mess, if you know what I mean? Noam, you've spent a lot of time in airline operations. Is that something you have to have to

Noam Alon: think about? Absolutely. In fact, that's the thing that a lot of times beyond the weather conditions, one of the reasons that you'll have a remote pad is for collecting all that de icing fluid which is a lot easier to do in a centralized place than at a gate that isn't necessarily designed so they'll, they actually have machines that will sweep it up or drains that will specifically capture it because, I mean, these chemicals are not great for other than de icing. I don't know how healthy they are for, so anyway, so that's usually one of the reasons you'll have a de icing pad is so that you can capture that, those chemicals and, and avoid them getting into other, other systems.

Geoff Murray: And the other, the other reason is you've got the de icing equipment really in one facility. So, imagine Noam and I are talking as pilots, but as a guy who's doing the de icing. You've got to move the truck around, you've got people moving around the ramp, you've got marshallers all over the place.
Like if you're one of the guys driving the truck or doing the de icing, I am sure the last thing you want to be doing is doing the de icing at the gate. When you're out at the, at the de icing facility, we are out the de icing pad, you're literally, you're sitting in your truck, here comes an airplane. I spray this, I spray that.
I get on the radio, boom, that airplane goes and there's another one. So it, it is. I'm, I'm probably being a little too dramatic in how much time it takes. I am sure if you talk to the airport authorities, they'd be like, time to de-ice in a pad is a lot shorter than at the gate. 'cause we don't have to move the equipment around.
The guys don't have to get repositioned. Everything's really efficient.

Noam Alon: And to add to that, I would say at a pad, you're usually sprayed by two trucks, so each truck is doing one side of the aircraft, where at the gate, you have one, and as Geoff said, they're trying to navigate all the other ground equipment, and then get around to the other side of the airplane, much more, much tighter quarters, so, um.
Yeah, I think the pad is definitely much more efficient. It is not easy for those

Geoff Murray: folks. I mean, I was de icing once at an outstation. We were in Allentown, Pennsylvania getting de iced. So, a couple aircraft coming in and out of there every day. You've got one truck, that truck only de ices three or four and see the truck hit us.
I mean, it, it, it hit the aircraft, took us completely out of service. And the plane, the plane was gummed up for days.

Doug Cameron: Does every airport in the U. S. actually have de icing equipment, even in the south? Have you ever been caught short because they either haven't had enough or haven't had any?

Noam Alon: There's always a de icing system. It may require waiting for the sun to warm up the airplane. Correct, correct.

Geoff Murray: And I mean, I mean, it's a good question. I mean, it's kind of a funny question. Because there are airports in the south when there was the polar vortex, and I can't remember if it was two or three years ago, I'm thinking that like, maybe it was Tallahassee, Florida and that kind of thing that got impacted with just light snow, but it was enough snow and frost to contaminate the wing of the aircraft and they're like, What are we going to do?
We don't have

Doug Cameron: DIG. We brought it in Houston for two years. It snowed once in the two years and I think it was the first time in ten years it had snowed. Right. That's certainly had an impact. Bush is not O'Hare in terms of its spread. Right. Right. What else can go wrong in terms of, from a pilot's perspective, in terms of the availability of deicing equipment Geoff, I don't know if you've, apart from your car crash or plane bumping incident, what else?

Geoff Murray: I mean, it's the beginning, we're in the beginning of the deicing season now, we're just going into the holiday season and all that. And it was a week and a half ago, I was at an outstation, I won't mention where, they were getting It's psyched up. They're like, we're ready to de ice and all that stuff.
We were the number three or number four aircraft to get de iced. They came up, started de icing us. And you can hear the fluid hitting the top of the aircraft. You can look out the window, seeing them spray on the wings and that kind of thing. And all of a sudden it stops. We're like, what happened?
We're getting on the radio and we're like, hey, flight one, two, three, you guys. And they're like, the sheepish guy that's on the radio is like, well, we, we ran out of fluid. We got, we got to go back to the depot to fill up the truck.

Doug Cameron: Fill

Geoff Murray: up the truck. It's snowing. It was only type one fluid. And lo and behold, we need to go through the whole process, the type one again, ended up to type IV and all that stuff. But that was more emblematic. I would say, it's the beginning of the travel season, the beginning of the winter, winter travel season. Was your flight on time? We were not on time, but. We did attempt, we went really fast on the way back, I think, truthfully, I think we actually left 45 minutes or 50 minutes late, and we got to the gate. We were coming to O'Hare, we got to the gate at O'Hare maybe 5 or 6 minutes late.

Noam Alon: I'll tell you this, just from some of my experience working in other jobs in the airline at the larger hubs in particular, they're in the off season, like around the summertime. There's all this pre planning, all this tabletop exercises to prevent exactly what Geoff just described from happening.
It's like, how do we, what did we learn from last season about where to stage the trucks and how much fluid do we need and what are the long term forecasts and all these. variables, there's so much planning that goes into this so that while there likely will be a delay, how do we minimize it?
How do we make sure that from our passenger's perspective, we're doing this as quickly and as efficiently as possible?

Doug Cameron: But you can still get hit by curveballs. A few years ago, I remember there was like a national shortage of particular types of fluid. Correct, correct. You guys get everybody in a, in a milk particular.

Geoff Murray: Yeah. And this fluid isn't. It's not like you can just go fill up a truck with the de icing fluid you're getting down at your auto parts supply store. I mean, this is like heavily engineered really remarkable Fluid and a truck needs to carry two types of it. It's got the type one which is to clear the aircraft It's the type IV which is to keep the aircraft clear after it's already been cleared.
So it's a really Big deal. And in, and in terms of the desktop exercises, the preparation, I mean, there is a, I think they actually call it like the Super Bowl of de icing. And there's, there's a group of, of airline folks who keep track of, Hey, there was a big snow event in Denver and Seattle, and they will, will award the airport that did the best.
Like folks who do this, take it really, really seriously. It's a, it's a big

Doug Cameron: deal. Does it not drip off the wing? How does it clean itself? How does the plane clean itself? It's actually a

Noam Alon: remarkable, property, remarkable properties of chemistry. So it's actually very thick, very sticky, almost like molasses.
And when it's applied to the wing, it stays on so that it can, any precipitation that's falling, the snow or ice, is captured by the fluid. But you don't want Gallons and gallons of this liquid on your wing as you're taking off. So as you roll down the runway, what you'll notice roughly around, let's call it about halfway down the takeoff roll, but it happens at about 100 knots, but as a pastor you might not know that speed. But about halfway down the runway, if you're looking out the window, you'll see it sheer off. And it basically becomes like water and runs off the wing carrying any accumulated snow that it's captured and leaving the wing clean. And without all that extra weight so you can take off and the airplane can meet its performance requirements for takeoff.

Geoff Murray: It's actually pretty remarkable. Yeah, it's remarkable stuff. I mean, it's remarkable. But it is slippery as heck on the ramp. I mean, even from a safety perspective, I think of, well, I mean, Noam, you, you ran an operations control center at one point. I'm sure the airports don't like the fact that they de ice.
at the gate because that fluid is so slippery. You've got folks loading bags, doing the fueling and all that stuff. I am sure it is a big time safety hazard.

Noam Alon: Yeah, oh yeah. Lots of

Doug Cameron: injuries

Noam Alon: in

Doug Cameron: the

Noam Alon: winter.

Doug Cameron: Okay, but for the passenger's safety. So, Noam, Geoff, thanks very much. We've covered a lot of ground here.
De icing is absolutely necessary for safety, but it can also be both very time consuming and have a pretty big impact on your, your journey time. So. Hopefully everyone's learned a little bit here about the process and at least how not to be frustrated about it. So thanks for listening to the KnowEntry podcast and again if you want to learn a little bit more about the travel process then you can look at No Delay which can offer exclusive information about ways to reduce your travel time by being aware of potential delays.
So, thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

Daniel: Thanks for joining the KnowEntry podcast. For more information, visit Knnodelay.com.

Geoff Murray: When you're flying in restricted visibility, you're paying close attention, you're briefing everything in detail, and within literally a split second, you're executing what's called a missed approach, effectively abandoning that approach, heading out to a holding pattern. Flying to another airport and during that period of time, the flying typically tends to be pretty normal. It feels normal. You can't see out the window, but until that last minute, you just don't know whether you're going to get to the destination or not.

Daniel: Welcome to the no entry podcast presented by KnowDelay.

Doug Cameron: Hi and welcome To the no entry podcast where we take you behind the cockpit door to make that travel experience just a little bit more stressful. I'm Doug Cameron. I've been an aviation journalist for the best part of 40 years, but more importantly, I've been a passenger for 45 years. That's my only qualification to help you and to help me get through that travel journey. I'm joined by Geoff Murray and Noah Malone, both longtime pilots. Geoff, where have you been recently?

Geoff Murray: So where have I been recently? Well, I'm heading to LaGuardia this afternoon. Uh, like Noam, I was in Toronto the other day.
I was out in Monterey, Mexico a few days ago. I've been a pilot for, uh, almost 40 years, an airline pilot for about 20 years. Aviation consultant during that period of time also ran the supply chain team for a major U. S. airline, but, uh, flying is my passion and I really enjoy being an airline pilot. I know,

Noam Alon: where have you been?
Just recently, as Geoff mentioned, I was just in Toronto. Been bouncing back and forth between the coasts. I've been an airline pilot for over 25 years and also held a number of management roles for major airline, including running the operations control center where we make all the decisions about cancellations, delays, routing of crews, etc.
So, Doug Cameron: passionate about flying too. Great. Well, we're going to draw on everything both of you know, and in later episodes, we're going to be joined by the guests who are going to tell us what they know, which again, can make everybody's flights just that little bit easier. We're going to start with the big one, weather.
It's probably the biggest source of frustration, the biggest source of uncertainty for passengers. The statistics are there. Three quarters of, uh, delays are down to weather. Now, while most flights are, uh, arrive on time. It's the weather that concerns people and obviously concerns pilots. You're at the front.
So Geoff, you start us off. Everybody wants to know how to try and avoid delays. So what are the big weather delay issues that you as pilots and flight crew So,

Geoff Murray: as you noted, Doug, 75 percent of the flight delays are caused by weather and, and frankly, as a pilot, there are a myriad of variables that we look at that could potentially influence whether a flight is delayed, whether we have to have what's called an alternate, meaning if we can't get to our destination, where else will we fly to if the weather is too bad, but the big ones are, are frankly, fairly obvious.
I mean, it's snowstorms, thundershowers, heavy rain, wind. But as Noam and I will get into later in this podcast and in others, there's also just dozens of variables and parameters that we're looking at constantly that can influence the performance of the aircraft and importantly, the ability for us to get to the destination.
Doug Cameron: Noam, before I leave the house, I'll look out the window, I'll maybe check the weather app for the weather at my destination, I'll get to the airport, I'll get to the gate 45 minutes before. You as a pilot, an hour before the flight, what do you know and which perhaps passengers should bear in mind when they're making their final travel plans, what do you know that passengers should bear in mind as well about potential weather issues and how that might factor into your flight.

Noam Alon: Yeah, weather is really more than just what's happening at your airport where you're departing. There's that, there's also the weather en route, and then there's weather at the destination. And so we take all of that into account. There is a little bit of additional consideration where the airplane that you're going to be flying, where it's coming from, and is there weather at that airport.
And so we take all of that into account before, to make sure that the flight operates on time.

Doug Cameron: Geoff, what's uh, what's the kind of worst weather news that you can get in your pre flight briefing?

Geoff Murray: Boy, there are so many, but I'd say, probably one of the worst is restricted visibility because you can fly in it.
It typically doesn't knock the airplane around the way the winds or thunderstorms or that kind of thing, but when you're flying in a restricted visibility situation, you're paying close attention. to the crew member or the other pilot you're flying with. You're briefing everything in detail you could, you could make a perfect approach to the airport, but the visibility could be limited or the ceiling is too low.
And within literally a split second, You're executing what's called the missed approach. You're, you're effectively abandoning that approach, heading out to a holding pattern, flying to another airport. And during that period of time, I mean, your performance is best. The communication is the best. The flying typically tends to be pretty normal.
It feels normal. You can't see out the window, but until that last minute, you just don't know whether you're going to get to the destination or not.

Doug Cameron: Now Geoff mentioned communication. We're still, uh, we haven't taken off yet in our hypothetical flight. What sort of information do you try to impart to passengers and indeed did your fellow, uh, fellow crew members, but before you take off based on what you know and also your experience of what can change too?

Noam Alon: Yeah, that's a great question. In fact, I mean, this is part of my standard briefing both to the co pilot and to the flight attendants. Try to give as much information as possible to the passengers to let them know what kinds of things we're considering, just like Geoff mentioned. Most often, the weather does not cause a delay, but when it does, I try to be as transparent as possible.
And taking all the considerations that we talked about previously. Now, what can

Doug Cameron: change on route, Geoff? Uh, again, it's unknowns, which probably upset passengers most of, if they know a little bit, if they know it's, it's snowing heavily where they left or it's snowing heavily where, where they're arriving. Uh, what, what could change and how do you monitor it?
And again, how do you try to communicate that to, to passengers?

Geoff Murray: Right. So there's, like we talked about in the beginning, there's a lot of things that can change, I would say, and I presume no one would agree with this, some of the most challenging flying typically is in the summer when you've got thunderstorms and rain showers, because a thunderstorm or rain shower can sit on top of an airport.
It could be five miles from the airport. In both of those instances, it will restrict arrivals and delay aircraft into an airport. So, we're always monitoring the movement of thunderstorms and rain showers in the winter. We're looking at things like, how fast the snow is falling, how much accumulation is there, because even a quarter inch difference in snow accumulation Can can mean an airport operating normally to an airport with restricted or no arrivals.
And we're watching all of that in real time when we're airborne. And then, just like Noam said, before we even depart, when we brief as a crew, we're telling everybody, hey, the snow's falling. If it picks up by a quarter inch, they're going to restrict the arrivals. Our alternate is this airport. So everybody.
is briefed, everybody understands the information that we're working with, and then I'll have Noam talk about how he talks to the passengers, because that tends to be a different conversation.

Doug Cameron: I'd love to hear more about that, Noam. Yeah, how do you, uh, with all these imponderables and changing, a quarter inch of snow can fall up, uh, fall pretty quickly, so a lot of changing variables.
How are you trying to impart that?

Noam Alon: Well, I think, transparency is really the key and weather models have gotten a lot better over the over recent years, but there are still some elements of weather like Geoff talked about thunderstorms in the summer and some of the winter operations like ice pellets.
It's not as Transcribed be simple sometimes as snow or wind, which largely we can figure in a plan and we can communicate that very clearly. It's going to take us 15 minutes to de ice and take us 30 minutes to taxi, whatever it might be. But ice pellets, uh, in the wintertime or thunderstorms in the summertime can create a lot of very dynamic, uh, situations where We can have a fairly clear idea of what we think it's going to be and then the conditions change so quickly and the impact on the operation is pretty significant.
So what I try to do is, in all honesty, is try to be transparent. I share what I know. If we happen to be stuck at the gate for a long time, I'll let passengers come up and ask questions to try to relay what information I have. And then as things change, I do this, I update people on that information.

Doug Cameron: So the weather is obviously dynamic. How does that then feed into Where planes actually fly in the sky, does that change how they're either spaced or that the height that you fly at? How does that change?

Geoff Murray: Oh, it has a, the weather has a big impact on that. I mean, the weather in an airport, weather that restricts arrivals at an airport will always lead to delays because the airport, the air traffic control, Leaders need to make greater separation between aircraft.
So instead of, for example, O'Hare accepting 60 or 80 aircraft an hour, they may have to go down to 30 or 40 an hour, depending on the weather. So the configuration of that weather and the variability Of that weather is really difficult to predict. So just like Noam said, transparent with the passengers say, Hey, there is a chance of a delay.
There is a chance we may need to go to our alternate. Our alternate is this, this airport. And the other thing to keep in mind is unlike flying 10 or 20 years ago is the folks in back. often have similar information to what we have. I mean, I've had passengers when we've diverted, they're like, Hey, I knew we were diverting five minutes before you made the PA because I was watching our ATC monitor on my phone.
So they saw us diverting to Indianapolis when we were supposed to go to O'Hare and that kind of thing. So in many cases, the folks in the back, I mean, while they may not know as much as you, because they don't have all, they know a lot.

Doug Cameron: Got it. And is that. Basically because of safety or is it because of workload or is a mix of the two?
Why, why is, why are the planes spaced out further? And I guess they can also make change, ask you to change your speed as well, I guess.

Noam Alon: Right. I'll share with you. So on a beautiful day with light winds and clear skies, what air traffic controllers do is they allow pilots to maintain separation visually with other airplanes.
And when you do that, you can bring the airplanes in as close as safety allows. How far is that? It's about 30 seconds. It's, it varies by the speed of the airplane, about 30 seconds. If you picture an airport, large, busy airport, and you see all the airplanes stacked up one behind the other, arriving at. In a runway, when you can see as a, as a passenger on the ground, think of those days as the days where the airplanes are most closely put together.

Geoff Murray: Like Noam said, 30 seconds, it's generally three or four miles. Three or four miles before I mean between aircraft that way the aircraft that's following can see the aircraft in front and it enables ATC to effectively hand off that separation to the flight crew versus the ATC versus the ATC folks on the ground.
Right.

Noam Alon: And then once you add weather, now the pilots can't do that visually, so the air traffic controllers have to do that using their instrumentation, their radar. And so by definition, they have to separate the airplanes a little bit further apart. And if you imagine that an airport is filled to capacity in terms of the number of flights, now you start to build delays because longer times between flights means each, the airport can only accept it.
Uh, a certain number per hour, and now it can accept fewer because of that larger separation. You might

Doug Cameron: go from 30 seconds and three or four miles to, to what sort of, what sort of distance and what sort of timing? Yeah, about 45 seconds or five

Noam Alon: miles, something like that. Okay.

Geoff Murray: And, and sometimes more.
Sometimes more sometimes could be 10 miles and really restrictive weather conditions and that kind of thing again with when they're landing on different runways. And we'll talk about that in another podcast is it's way too rich to cover to cover just in one session, but there's a lot of variables.

Doug Cameron: Right. Now, certainly passengers may have been at the gate and heard an announcement that there's a ground stop. Maybe you can explain that and explain what it means to, if your flight hasn't taken off, and what it means if you're en route. So, I'm going

Geoff Murray: to cover that one because you were, uh, when you were running the operation for one airline, you were dealing with those every single

Noam Alon: day. Right. Thanks. Yeah. So, think about this. On any given day, On average, the same number of flights are scheduled every day, right? And the airline, you're buying your ticket as a passenger well before the airline knows, and air traffic control knows what the weather is. But now the weather shows up, and when it surprises air traffic control, let's say it wasn't forecasted, a ground stop is a tool to stop aircraft that are not in the air, stop them on the ground so that the air traffic controllers can manage the airplanes that are already airborne, already sequenced for the airport, and Manage those airplanes while stopping airplanes that would otherwise be scheduled to fly to get airborne that usually turns into something else that you've probably heard about, which is a ground delay program, and that is now we know what the air traffic controls knows what the delay is and basically says, Okay, we can handle X number of airports and they start to assign us a departure time to all the flights that are scheduled for the rest of the day.
And so those are two tools. The ground delay program and the Okay. Uh, ground stopper, two tools air traffic control uses to manage flights in at a metered rate that is less than what is normally scheduled.

Doug Cameron: And who decides when a, a ground delay or a ground stop program comes into force, and for passengers more importantly, when it's lifted and they can, they can hopefully get on their way.

Noam Alon: Yeah, that's the air traffic control system, it's done in combination with the local air traffic controller and the national airspace controllers because you can imagine flights are coming from, depending on the airport, all over the world and so managing all of that traffic, it's a combination of very coordinated effort between air traffic controllers and of course the airlines too.
Can airlines ask

Doug Cameron: to be moved around or appeal or you get your place and you get your place because that's the way it is? Yes.

Noam Alon: I mean, that is literally what I used to do every day. And so what the air traffic control system does is they say, we typically, let's take O'Hare as an example. We typically can handle a hundred flights an hour into the airport, but because of weather now we can only handle 60, we have 60 slots.
Airline A, you are scheduled to have 50 slots. Uh, uh, now because it went from 100 to 60, went down by 40%, you had 50 airplanes. Now you, that goes down to 40%, you can decide which of your flights takes those 50 slots. 40 percent fewer slots. And what happens is, is some flights, maybe an international flight, keeps going because it's already in the air. And the flight that's very close to O'Hare gets cancelled or delayed for a long time. So it's up to the airline to manage with the fewer slots that are provided by ATC.

Geoff Murray: Right. Noam dealt with this every single day in kind of a really thematic rule there. is the regional airlines are disproportionately delayed or canceled.
And the simple reason is, they're not carrying as many passengers. So when Nome was making those decisions, at the top of that food tree were the international flights. They've already departed. They're carrying 300, 400 passengers. Then it was the wide body domestic flights. Then it was the high yield domestic flights.
And at the bottom of that food tree, where guys like me were the regionals and the regionals were disproportionately cancelled or delayed. And the data shows this when there's a weather event. I mean, plain and simple.

Noam Alon: And it's a function, it's a function of the revenue, but it's also a function of alternative means to get people moving, right?
You can, if we're taking, let's say, I don't know, pick an airport, Los Angeles. So if there's a big weather event in Los Angeles and the international flights coming from Japan. There's no alternative, right? So that flight has to operate. But the flight that may have connected from, uh, San Diego, you can get on a bus and drive to L.
A. To catch your flight or you can get in a car. So there are alternatives to that that also are part of the consideration.

Geoff Murray: And speaking of that, and speaking as a regional pilot who literally is, I mean, I was in Moline the other day, Peoria, South Bend, If there is a weather event in Chicago, and I'm sure there's people at my airline that would get mad at me for doing this, myself and the captain will go out, talk to the passengers and say, Hey, we're heading up to Chicago.
Chicago's got rain showers or snow showers or whatever. There's a rental car booth right there, and there's a bus station right there, and you may be better off getting in a car, or getting in a bus, or in some cases getting on a train to get to Chicago. I mean, it's, it's so important to be transparent and to be thinking of these alternatives, but the closer you are to one of these hub airports when you're delayed, the more, when they're operating with delays, the more likely it is that you're going to be delayed.
Plain and simple.

Doug Cameron: Absolutely. Good luck finding a train in the Midwest, or at least more than one. In Milwaukee. This is true. That's true. That's true. You mentioned a few airports there, Geoff, up in Toronto, it snows there. Everyone knows it's foggy in San Francisco. So just in terms of your kind of travel checklist, where are places where it's just more commonplace in terms of weather delays?
And you should be aware of that.

Noam Alon: I think it is partly a seasonal answer to that question in general, you can expect more consistent delays is in the northeast of the U. S. Uh, in particular, the New York airports. There's just so much traffic and so little real estate. Newark in particular is a tough airport.
As you mentioned, San Francisco again seasonally. When there's ground fog over there, uh, that could be difficult. And in the summertime, almost all the large hubs are impacted, but especially in the southeast, in Florida, those airports every day. It's almost like Hogwarts. Yeah.

Geoff Murray: Every day. Literally, I mean, I, for my other job, for my non flying job in consulting, I used to have to go down to Florida fairly regularly.
And I would rarely, if ever, take an afternoon flight down there. Even if I had to kind of rearrange my plans to get on a 6am or 7am flight from O'Hare. down to Florida. I would do that because I was confident I would get there. Whereas going in the afternoon, you get all these, pop up thunderstorms, rain showers, they're impacting arrivals, they're impacting sequencing. I mean, they, they just gum up travel and no one, no one, I monitor this stuff. You see it every single day. day in the afternoon, FAA will publish or delays in Orlando, delays in Miami, delays in Fort Lauderdale, Tampa. I mean, it's, they're just, they're prevalent in the summer months.

Doug Cameron: Yeah, no, I'm definitely a huge fan of the, of the early flight without picking on San Francisco.
It does just make me think of visibility and I've, over the years I've landed and wondered how on earth did we manage to, to land here? Uh, and on other days, uh, when we have landed and we've had been in a holding pattern, why couldn't we, uh, why couldn't we land when the pilots mentioned visibility?
No, maybe you could take us through what the decision on, on when you're, you're able to land because. Are you going to San
Geoff Murray: Francisco tonight?

Noam Alon: I am. I am. Right. Tell us about it. Weather looks good. It's a function of a lot of things. But in addition to the visibility, wind conditions also impact in particular, San Francisco. So when the weather is, you typically land on the runways that point west, westward, the two eights. And when the wind is favorable for those, the airport can typically handle a pretty good volume even with low visibility. It's when you get strong cross winds. So they and they typically come off the bay.
Landing, if they're from the north or from the, uh, from the south, uh, that can cause significant delays when the visibility is, is more restrictive. Uh, but essentially like Geoff indicated, we brief all that up as pilots. We brief, uh, the, the flight attendants and the passengers, we explain what we're going to do.
And in some cases. Even when the visibility is really low, some of the aircraft can do an auto land, which means even in a very low visibility situation, the airplanes can land themselves. It's a very precise procedure that we run, that we train for all the time. And in that case, even with very low visibility, the flights can arrive.
Now, not all aircraft are equipped with that equipment. And so depending on the kind of flight you're on, the kind of aircraft you're on, you may not be able to land when other airplanes are able to land. Okay,

Doug Cameron: so, so after landing, just to wrap up guys, what sort of curve balls can the, can the weather throw after you've actually landed?
Can ice make you have to taxi slower or, I, I guess gates can get gummed up, but yeah. What, what are the kind of curve balls you might find after, after you've landed and which, frankly passengers might get frustrated about, but, but less so if they, if they know what could happen.

Geoff Murray: I'll take that one. There was a couple of those a week ago that we had a really good cold snap here in the Midwest.
And I'm again doing a lot of the flying in and out of the regional airports and some of the larger airports. We had an early morning departure. We were going to a smaller airport. They had the snow, ice, some freezing rain and all that stuff. We touched down, we get to the gate, we get marshalled into the gate.
And the jetway is literally frozen. They can't move the jetway. So they push us off the gate, they bring up some stairs, the folks walk off the aircraft via the stairs, across the ramp, into the, uh, end of the terminal. So, I mean, there are so many things when there's a weather event. I mean, in O'Hare alone, when it's really cold, they have trouble unsealing the basically the fueling. What do you call them, Noam, the fueling hydrants? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gas. Right, but, and Noam's got more stories from his mainline flying. I mean, a million things that could go wrong.

Noam Alon: In addition to the things Geoff had mentioned, I mean, you could have, it's typically, icing is not so much an arrival issue as much as maybe the airplane that is at the gate that you're going to occupy can't depart because it needs to be de iced, uh, or there might be some other issue with, with that aircraft departing that often is, is the reason your arrival is delayed, uh, into the gate.

Geoff Murray: Let me, I mean, a secondary kind of story to the one where they couldn't get the jetway operating, they hooked up a tug, the ramp was a little bit icy and the tug couldn't push the aircraft back because the wheels were spinning. So they had to move the tug, they had to bring over some. Some salt and some sand and that kind of thing to get the ramp clear so that the tug could push us back because the aircraft is powered by the motors.
It's not like we have little engines driving the wheels and all that stuff. We use the big engines to taxi around on the ground and all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, it could be a million different things that are going to impact

Doug Cameron: your ride. These tug wheels, though, get it going in no time. Okay, well, guys.
Thanks so much for this. This is the No Entry podcast from NoDelay. That's nodelay. com, K N O W, delay, which you can find out weather conditions up to three days before, which will certainly help smooth your travel, the better. So guys, thanks very much and we'll see you next time. Okay, safe travels.
Daniel: Thanks for joining the No Entry podcast. For more information, visit nodelay. com.

Doug Cameron: Hi, and welcome to the KnowEntry podcast from the folks at KnowDelay, where we take you behind the cockpit door, hopefully to improve your understanding of flying and make that traveling experience just a little bit less stressful. I'm your host Doug Cameron and I'm joined as ever by Noam Alon, Geoff Murray and Dennis Taylor.

Gentlemen, how are you? Doing great. Great. Very well. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, everybody. So, we are into the New Year, which means a couple of things. My dry January is already bust, and I've ordered my haggis for Burns Night on the 25th. It also means we're into winter weather season, and we've already had a couple of big events across the Midwest and elsewhere in the country. Big question I think a lot of people ask beyond looking out the window is, ,, when can you fly and when can't you just fly? Dennis, actually, you've all been out on the road. How has your initial storm season been?

Dennis Taylor: Well, actually, I live in Kansas City, so we just had a major system pass through here, and I was traveling right before this event. And watching the weather, ended up coming home a day early. And thankfully so, because we landed and at midnight, the night before, I wanted to get home. The next day, of course, I had to watch the flight, see if it operated, if I would have stayed in my primary. And guess what? It did. However, I would not have made it from the airport home, because the ice storm hit. And as we've talked about in other episodes, boy, ice is the one thing that really shuts down the airport and keeps us from flying. But it also keeps everybody from getting to the airport or getting home. And we've had problems with that in the Kansas City area. Then we had a blizzard the next day and it shut down all the operations.

Doug Cameron: So I was going to say, how long did it close things down for?

Dennis Taylor: Till Monday. So, the event started Saturday afternoon. And everything was pretty much closed till about 6 p. m. on Monday. And I think Noam even had an issue with that when he was flying. Where were you, Noam?

Noam Alon: I was flying from Chicago to Dallas Fort Worth, and we had a major deicing operation in Chicago, but the point, I think, Dennis is talking about is our routing had to take us around Kansas City, where normally we would fly through Kansas City Center, had to take us around that because they couldn't get controllers to work to be able to manage the volume of traffic. So, we ended up having to go east of Kansas City Center because of the weather in Kansas City. Really challenging.

Doug Cameron: If there's a blizzard, you're not, you're not going to take off for a line. Geoff, what kind of weather basically just does shut down the system? Either. either because of flying or as no mentions because the infrastructure isn't there, the controllers can't get to work or they time out or whatever.
So, what are the barriers to entry for, for your flight or my flight?
Geoff Murray: In the winter, I think there are many barriers to entry that can inhibit any of us from successfully pushing back and launching on a flight. In fact, in a blizzard. I've flown in a blizzard. I'm sure Noam and Dennis have flown in a blizzard. You're, you're looking at things like ceiling and visibility and other parameters. But in the winter, in the winter months, there's so many other dimensions at play. And one of the big ones is, and Dennis referenced it earlier, is the type of precipitation. There are certain types of precipitation. In spite of all the equipment we have on the airplane, all of the dispatch capabilities at the airline, all the deicing capabilities at the ramp, that we just can't fly in. So, you can have all the equipment at your fingertips, but if you see freezing rain, ice pellets, and a handful of other types of precipitation that are pretty specific. Actually, I mean, we can't fly. And to Dennis's point in freezing rain is a big one. I mean, in the flight that he was going to be on Saturday, got into Kansas City a few minutes later, there's freezing rain. I mean, it's remarkable that plane was able to land because if it had been delayed 20 or 30 minutes later than when it, it, it got in, it wouldn't have been able to land. So, so there's just so many different dimensions of work in the winter that can gum up your travel.

Doug Cameron: Who makes the call as to whether it's snow or freezing rain? I think a lot of people are curious about that. Who decides that you've crossed that threshold? Safety is paramount, obviously. So, who decides? I bet you've flown in all of this or decided that you're not going to fly in any of it.

Dennis Taylor: Well, it's the airports making that call. There are people on the ground, the freezing rain. Now, you can look out there and maybe say, wait a second here. This is not snow anymore. This is freezing rain. And usually by the time you have that thought, that's about the time the weather information system changes, says freezing rain and everything stops. So they're making the call. They've got people, that's their job. And it's not the individual pilot that's making the call. Is that a freezing rain or is that snow, right?

Geoff Murray: and and I mean it's actually, there are folks at every airport, Doug, who are trained in this stuff there, and I can't remember the exact terminology. It's like NOAA certified. Weather observers, but they're trained in recognizing, okay, this is the difference between freezing rain and ice pellets, but they're trained in this stuff, and they publish it. So, when it's published, it goes to pilots like Noam, me, Dennis, it goes to our dispatch team, and we'll get a message immediately. Hey, precipitation type just changed to freezing rain,

Geoff Murray: Dispatch. And you are stuck at the gate, even though you may have been deiced. All the equipment's on the plane, ready to go, and you're airborne, your wings are gonna get hot and all that stuff. But in spite of all that, you see freezing rain, ice pellets, that kind of thing.
You're not flying. Period.

Doug Cameron: So, Dennis, the weather changes, and Noam, you mentioned about having to take a big workaround because of a controller shortage. How long can all this last, and how can it go, cascade through the system? I think we've all experienced a 30 minute delay turning into two hours and, if you're very unfortunate, two days. So how does it cascade through the system? And then we can maybe talk about how to avoid it as best you can.

Noam Alon: Yeah, I think, I mean, that's one of the challenges with winter operations is that the systems tend to be really large in this case, I was departing from Chicago, we had icing conditions, we had a mixed precipitation, which we'll talk about in a little bit, but, major deicing event in Chicago, that same storm, we were actually on the edge of a storm that extended all the way to Kansas City and further south and east and west, so it covered a lot of states. So, it's really hard to avoid. But, in this case, the delays were a function of both what was happening in Chicago and then, in addition to that, and all the deicing operations that happened as a result of that deicing operation. In addition to that, the longer route that we had to fly because people couldn't get to work, the controllers couldn't get to work to fly us in the most straight route.

Doug Cameron: So are the winter storms less predictable than a summer thunderstorm or just longer lasting? What's the, how can you tell? How best to avoid and maybe when, when not to try and book if you don't absolutely have to.

Geoff Murray: Well, I mean, I'll chime in there's a lot of interesting dimensions here, but I mean, these systems are big, every news station has been covering this major weather event, but I was talking to a colleague of mine and, and he was flying Orlando, Houston, San Diego this week. So, I'm telling him, hey, I'm at O'Hare, it's a mess, we're deicing, and he goes. Dude, I'm in Orlando, I'm going to Houston, then I'm going to San Diego, it's all good. Are there still hub airports that are functioning normally? So, even when you're looking at this major weather event and if you're supposed to connect over Chicago, think about connecting over Houston. Or Dallas. There's always alternatives because while these systems are really, really big, it is very rare they will cover every single hub airport.

Noam Alon: Although I will say that Dallas was darn cold. Yes. It was darn cold. Yes. I think it was in the mid 30s.
Geoff Murray: Yes. Yes. But it was clear. No freezing rain, no precip, that kind of thing. Right. It was cold. But, in the same vein. You've got colleagues of ours, crew members who are like, hey man, I'm doing Orlando, Houston, San Diego today and everything's humming. So, the system overall seems kind of broke, but yet you've got these outliers of folks who are flying in and out of hubs that aren't impacted by the weather.

Doug Cameron: That, that, that's useful insight. And don't forget, as well as to subscribe to the podcast. Take a look KnowDelay.com where you can find ways to mitigate your potential delays. Dennis, turning back, back to you. You, you fly yourself personally. What, what kind of do you do to try to avoid things yourself if you're flying commercially and not for pleasure, shall we say, as opposed to business.

Dennis Taylor: Well, so obviously if it's too bad you don't go we have that option. I would say flying the type of flying I do now, there's, I don't have the dispatch. I don't have the infrastructure to help. So, it's a lot more work making sure things are safe and I can operate the flight safely. So. Just more work, but I get to make the decision when the go so, or not go.

Doug Cameron: What's the worst you've ever had a winter weather delay? I, I'm saying to Noam, what's the worst winter weather delay you've had? Have you been, have you had days rather than ever?

Noam Alon: Well, I would say this was actually last season we had a flight to Jackson Hole where the forecast was for Snow Squalls, which, for those who are familiar, or those who aren't familiar, it's a short airport, high elevation, difficult weather conditions, and in the wintertime, on top of all the normal things, it's all the snow. So, we were fueled with an alternate to take us to Denver, which is quite far from Jackson Hole, and you're carrying all that weight. But long story short, as we approached the airport, sure enough, the snow started to fall pretty intensely, so we did the approach to try to see if we could land. We couldn't do that.
So, we went around, we tried it a second time, ended up diverting to Denver, and the snow just kept coming and coming, so we ended up, in that case, actually canceling the flight, and all those passengers were accommodated. What was surprising to me, is that those passengers are so, they must be frequent flyers and going to that airport because they were not surprised and they were actually very understanding. They're like, look, we, we don't want you going landing when it's not safe. We appreciate the fact that you took a look and then they ended up all those passengers got accommodated on a later flight when the weather improved. So, but for us that ended up being over a day of a delay until we were able to get back in.

Doug Cameron: Noam, that's a good idea for another episode, actually, given all the, the kind of proliferation of direct flights to some of the snow airports as the father of a of a new snowboarder. He's very interested in going to Jackson Hole, and we know all the new flights that have started over the past year. So maybe we will get back to that in a, in a later episode. Geoff, you wanted to chime in.

Geoff Murray: I think, some of the, we, we've all got great examples, but I think some of the, the, the most complex ones in the winter are in a big hub airport. You're deicing, you board up, you get deiced, you, you start heading for the runway, you're number 30 for takeoff and you're what we call our, our holdover time. The time that the deicing fluid is good for, expires. We talked a little bit about this earlier. You got to go back to the gate and it can just end up into this perpetuating, very frustrating delay because everybody's trying to get out of the airport. Everybody's trying to deice, but there's like only one or two runways that are in use, and it just turns into a frustrating day at the airport. And I've had I've had multiple cancellations where we've made, two, maybe three attempts at getting out, can't do it. We run out of time, our legal time to be on duty. So, the flight has to be canceled. There's just, there's so many permutations in the winter because the weather can be so complex.

Doug Cameron: And it's such a, it's such a push on the infrastructure at the airport. Well, that's a good place to wrap up. We're in the business of reducing frustration, but we can't always work miracles. So, thanks again, Geoff Murray, Dennis Taylor, Noam Alon. I'm your host, Doug Cameron, and see you next time. Don't forget to subscribe below to KnowDelay.com.