Aircraft icing airborne
Written by knowdelaymadev on March 19, 2025
Aircraft icing airborne
Doug Cameron (00:01)
Hi and welcome to the KnowEntry podcast from the folks at KnowDelay, where we take you behind the cockpit door, hopefully to provide you with information from some seasoned pilots that can make your travel experience just a little bit less stressful. So, we've talked a lot about icing on the ground and weather conditions and how that can add to delays. What about icing in the air? You're flying high, doesn't matter what the season is, it's cold up there.
So, what difference does it make? Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the technology has moved on. But let's go through some of the issues. Geoff, ice in flight, why is that a bad thing? I think I can guess, but I think you can provide a more scientific and professional answer.
Geoff Murray (00:46)
Sure. So, and as a team, we had a little bit of debate earlier about this very topic, but ice in the air generally doesn't result in a delayed flight. It dramatically degrades the performance of the aircraft. There are certain types of icing conditions, severe icing that we can't fly in, but those are few and far between. For the most part, once the airport and the airlines taking care of us, getting us off the ground,
We've been de-iced, which we talked about on our earlier podcast. Once we're in the air, generally the aircraft, not generally, mean, the aircraft can handle those icing conditions and that kind of thing, but it's something we're really cognizant of because again, it saps the performance from the airplane.
Doug Cameron (01:34)
Dennis, what kind of cockpit information or controls or displays do pilots have to let them know about icing conditions and that they're being handled by the aircraft systems?
Dennis Taylor (01:45)
Well, that differs on different airplanes. Some of the original airplanes or the older airplanes, you're looking out the window and see if there's ice building up on the windshield wiper. have, you know, that's one way to look. Well, yeah, if you go back to this. Yeah, and.
Doug Cameron (01:59)
That's very old school. You just take the wipers.
Geoff Murray (02:02)
But we still do that today. We still do that today. All of us do. Absolutely. Yep.
Dennis Taylor (02:08)
And small general-aviation airplanes, you you're looking outside, looking at your wing and seeing if you're building up ice. You get to the more modern airplanes. It's all, most of the anti-ice systems are automatic. They have sensors out there. They pick it up. The engine anti-ice, the wing anti-ice will come on automatically on some of the newer airplanes. So, it's a little mixed bag. But all the newer jets, it's pretty automatic. No? You had a question?
Noam Alon (02:38)
No, no, I was just scratching my eye.
Dennis Taylor (02:39)
I thought...
Doug Cameron (02:41)
Well, just on that, with your operations background, the aircraft have the systems to both detect and deal with it. It sounds kind of obvious, are these critical systems that in a checklist, if something's not working, I don't know, there's a fuse out in the warning light, that plane's not going up. that basically how it works? It's critical enough?
Noam Alon (03:07)
It's extremely critical. It does vary by airplane. What I would say is as a general rule, we're trying to prevent ice from building in the first place. So, a lot of the systems are anti-ice, So, that we're sending heat to the wing, to the engines, to the other critical surfaces to make sure ice doesn't build in the first place. If, for example, So, with a lot of these airplanes, I think the 787 is electric, but with a lot of the airplanes, you're sending heat from the engine. If that heat is not available because of a mechanical issue, like a valve doesn't open or something, then that really can limit your ability to fly and therefore a delay because you don't want to have asymmetrical anti-icing where one wing, for example, is de-iced and another one is not. So, in that case, you're going to have to make a decision as a crew whether you can change altitude to get out of the icing or if you can't, then you have to divert and handle that situation that way.
Geoff Murray (03:55)
You
Doug Cameron (04:08)
I like the idea of the wipers as a line of defense. just changed the wipers on my car last week. Have you guys ever had the wipers changed before takeoff, while you're in the cockpit? Have you ever seen someone up there changing them?
Geoff Murray (04:23)
I will say I have seen that. know, the wipers get changed and that kind of thing. But the big deal with the wipers is, know, when we've got advanced sensors on the external, you know, on the outside of the aircraft that are sending information into us to say, hey, we're in icing conditions, but everybody I fly with will get that icing warning. The first thing we're looking at is the windshield wiper to see if any ice is starting to accumulate on the windshield wiper. And even though when we're leaving the aircraft talking to the next crew,
Doug Cameron (04:26)
You
Geoff Murray (04:51)
We'll be like, hey, you we got a half inch or a quarter inch ice on the, you know, on the windows. You know, when you go outside and do your preflight, make sure you take a look and see if there's any, you know, ice that may not have been shed by the de-icing equipment on the airplane and that kind of thing. So, as rudimentary as it is, and it goes back to the 30s and 40s.
Doug Cameron (05:09)
No, I very much like the sound of it. Is actually conditioned something that's kind of passed down the chain? You mentioned about, know, pilots ahead of you, is that something that's passed through ATC or from planes running in the air saying, hey, you know, I'm looking at the wipers or Dennis is getting a warning and he's 787 or whatever. that something that sort of does the rounds?
Dennis Taylor (05:30)
Right, you'll pass it on, you'll check in on center, new frequency, there will be alerts that hey, pilots reporting icing from 11,000 to 15,000 feet. Just to let you know that, anticipate it, because some airplanes don't have quite the advanced system, So, obviously that's something they're going to make sure they avoid that area.
Noam Alon (05:52)
And just to that point, to that point, Doug.
Doug Cameron (05:53)
This is bit of a good news story. There doesn't seem to be a big impact on delays, which is great. It's one where the system and the technology and the training have kind of gelled together. ultimately, it, Geoff, I don't know if you've encountered this on the regional jet side, but can it actually lead to delays, maybe spacing out planes a bit more because of...
Geoff Murray (06:16)
Occasionally, and I had an example a couple of weeks ago where some aircraft were coming into O'Hare, they were getting de-icing, they were in icing conditions, and as a result, approach control increased the separation of aircraft, and I can't remember if maybe one or two of them went around, what exactly the situation was, but they increased the spacing. We had to hold for four or five minutes, then get re-sequenced into the arrival because the distance between the arriving aircraft that were experiencing these icing conditions, that distance was increased and that slowed down the arrival rate. But it doesn't happen that often.
Doug Cameron (06:58)
I think that's great gentlemen. At KnowEntry we try to provide not just examples of problems but also, examples where the industry has come together and found solutions and call it a good news story if you want and you can check out more information like this by subscribing to No Entry and of course check out KnowDelay for more information and some of the more problematic travel issues. So, Geoff, Dennis, Noam, thanks very much. Till next time, we'll see you then.
Hi and welcome to the KnowEntry podcast from the folks at KnowDelay, where we take you behind the cockpit door, hopefully to provide you with information from some seasoned pilots that can make your travel experience just a little bit less stressful. So, we've talked a lot about icing on the ground and weather conditions and how that can add to delays. What about icing in the air? You're flying high, doesn't matter what the season is, it's cold up there.
So, what difference does it make? Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the technology has moved on. But let's go through some of the issues. Geoff, ice in flight, why is that a bad thing? I think I can guess, but I think you can provide a more scientific and professional answer.
Geoff Murray (00:46)
Sure. So, and as a team, we had a little bit of debate earlier about this very topic, but ice in the air generally doesn't result in a delayed flight. It dramatically degrades the performance of the aircraft. There are certain types of icing conditions, severe icing that we can't fly in, but those are few and far between. For the most part, once the airport and the airlines taking care of us, getting us off the ground,
We've been de-iced, which we talked about on our earlier podcast. Once we're in the air, generally the aircraft, not generally, mean, the aircraft can handle those icing conditions and that kind of thing, but it's something we're really cognizant of because again, it saps the performance from the airplane.
Doug Cameron (01:34)
Dennis, what kind of cockpit information or controls or displays do pilots have to let them know about icing conditions and that they're being handled by the aircraft systems?
Dennis Taylor (01:45)
Well, that differs on different airplanes. Some of the original airplanes or the older airplanes, you're looking out the window and see if there's ice building up on the windshield wiper. have, you know, that's one way to look. Well, yeah, if you go back to this. Yeah, and.
Doug Cameron (01:59)
That's very old school. You just take the wipers.
Geoff Murray (02:02)
But we still do that today. We still do that today. All of us do. Absolutely. Yep.
Dennis Taylor (02:08)
And small general-aviation airplanes, you you're looking outside, looking at your wing and seeing if you're building up ice. You get to the more modern airplanes. It's all, most of the anti-ice systems are automatic. They have sensors out there. They pick it up. The engine anti-ice, the wing anti-ice will come on automatically on some of the newer airplanes. So, it's a little mixed bag. But all the newer jets, it's pretty automatic. No? You had a question?
Noam Alon (02:38)
No, no, I was just scratching my eye.
Dennis Taylor (02:39)
I thought...
Doug Cameron (02:41)
Well, just on that, with your operations background, the aircraft have the systems to both detect and deal with it. It sounds kind of obvious, are these critical systems that in a checklist, if something's not working, I don't know, there's a fuse out in the warning light, that plane's not going up. that basically how it works? It's critical enough?
Noam Alon (03:07)
It's extremely critical. It does vary by airplane. What I would say is as a general rule, we're trying to prevent ice from building in the first place. So, a lot of the systems are anti-ice, So, that we're sending heat to the wing, to the engines, to the other critical surfaces to make sure ice doesn't build in the first place. If, for example, So, with a lot of these airplanes, I think the 787 is electric, but with a lot of the airplanes, you're sending heat from the engine. If that heat is not available because of a mechanical issue, like a valve doesn't open or something, then that really can limit your ability to fly and therefore a delay because you don't want to have asymmetrical anti-icing where one wing, for example, is de-iced and another one is not. So, in that case, you're going to have to make a decision as a crew whether you can change altitude to get out of the icing or if you can't, then you have to divert and handle that situation that way.
Geoff Murray (03:55)
You
Doug Cameron (04:08)
I like the idea of the wipers as a line of defense. just changed the wipers on my car last week. Have you guys ever had the wipers changed before takeoff, while you're in the cockpit? Have you ever seen someone up there changing them?
Geoff Murray (04:23)
I will say I have seen that. know, the wipers get changed and that kind of thing. But the big deal with the wipers is, know, when we've got advanced sensors on the external, you know, on the outside of the aircraft that are sending information into us to say, hey, we're in icing conditions, but everybody I fly with will get that icing warning. The first thing we're looking at is the windshield wiper to see if any ice is starting to accumulate on the windshield wiper. And even though when we're leaving the aircraft talking to the next crew,
Doug Cameron (04:26)
You
Geoff Murray (04:51)
We'll be like, hey, you we got a half inch or a quarter inch ice on the, you know, on the windows. You know, when you go outside and do your preflight, make sure you take a look and see if there's any, you know, ice that may not have been shed by the de-icing equipment on the airplane and that kind of thing. So, as rudimentary as it is, and it goes back to the 30s and 40s.
Doug Cameron (05:09)
No, I very much like the sound of it. Is actually conditioned something that's kind of passed down the chain? You mentioned about, know, pilots ahead of you, is that something that's passed through ATC or from planes running in the air saying, hey, you know, I'm looking at the wipers or Dennis is getting a warning and he's 787 or whatever. that something that sort of does the rounds?
Dennis Taylor (05:30)
Right, you'll pass it on, you'll check in on center, new frequency, there will be alerts that hey, pilots reporting icing from 11,000 to 15,000 feet. Just to let you know that, anticipate it, because some airplanes don't have quite the advanced system, So, obviously that's something they're going to make sure they avoid that area.
Noam Alon (05:52)
And just to that point, to that point, Doug.
Doug Cameron (05:53)
This is bit of a good news story. There doesn't seem to be a big impact on delays, which is great. It's one where the system and the technology and the training have kind of gelled together. ultimately, it, Geoff, I don't know if you've encountered this on the regional jet side, but can it actually lead to delays, maybe spacing out planes a bit more because of...
Geoff Murray (06:16)
Occasionally, and I had an example a couple of weeks ago where some aircraft were coming into O'Hare, they were getting de-icing, they were in icing conditions, and as a result, approach control increased the separation of aircraft, and I can't remember if maybe one or two of them went around, what exactly the situation was, but they increased the spacing. We had to hold for four or five minutes, then get re-sequenced into the arrival because the distance between the arriving aircraft that were experiencing these icing conditions, that distance was increased and that slowed down the arrival rate. But it doesn't happen that often.
Doug Cameron (06:58)
I think that's great gentlemen. At KnowEntry we try to provide not just examples of problems but also, examples where the industry has come together and found solutions and call it a good news story if you want and you can check out more information like this by subscribing to No Entry and of course check out KnowDelay for more information and some of the more problematic travel issues. So, Geoff, Dennis, Noam, thanks very much. Till next time, we'll see you then.